Urgent Question in the Commons on Uber and the gig economy - full transcript

The following is a transcript of an Urgent Question in the House of Commons today on Uber. The question was put by Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough, Lab), Shadow Employment Rights and Protections Secretary and was answered by Paul Scully, Minister for London and Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Minister for Small Business, Consumers and Labour Markets).

Paul Scully [00:01:46] Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to begin by making it absolutely clear that everyone deserves to be treated fairly at work and rewarded for their contribution to the economy, both in terms of fair pay and fair working conditions. This means that employers must take their responsibilities seriously and not simply opt out of them if there's a dispute between the individual and employer as soon as in the recent case involving Uber. The courts consider each case on an individual basis. The courts are independent and the government does not intervene. As such with the Supreme Court being the final stage of the appeal, its judgement is final and Uber would need to take action to align with the judgement. The government recognises concerns around employment status being unclear in some cases, and we're committed to making it easier for individuals and businesses to understand which rights and tax obligations apply to them. We've made good progress in bringing forward measures that add flexibility for workers while ensuring the protection of employment rights. For example, we've legislated to extend the rights to a written statement of core terms of employment to all workers, making access to a written statement that they want rights and extending the contents of a written statement. We've also banned the use of exclusivity contracts and zero-hour contracts to give workers more flexibility. This means an employer can't stop an individual on a zero-hours contracts from looking for or accepting work from another employer. We'll continue to explore options around employment status, which protects rights while also maintaining flexibility in the labour market. This government has a proud history of protecting and enhancing workers rights, and we're committed to making the UK the best place in the world to work.

Andy McDonald [00:03:28] Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Last Friday's Supreme Court ruling was a landmark victory for working people and testament to the hard work of the GMB and ADCU trade unions and drivers who brought the action. It rejected Uber's bogus claim that its drivers are self-employed, ruling they are workers and therefore entitled to basic rights that have so far been denied to them, such as the national minimum wage and holiday pay. The ruling has far-reaching consequences for tens of thousands of Uber drivers, as well as old Gig economy workers, yet Uber is attempting to dodge the Supreme Court ruling like it attempts to dodge its responsibilities to its drivers by trying to interpret the ruling so it applies only to a tiny minority of its workforce. If Uber ignores this ruling, tens of thousands of workers would be cheated out of their rights, forcing low paid and precarious workers to spend time and money that can ill afford to litigate to recover withheld wages in cases that will likely win but will take years to conclude. The government shouldn't abandon working people to fight for their rights in the courts. So will the Minister take this opportunity to make clear that this judgement applies to all Uber drivers and that the company cannot continue to cheat its drivers out of their basic rights? Even before the pandemic, it was found that one in 10 working adults around five million workers in the gig economy in fragile and insecure work with one side inflexibility, which is bad for those workers, bad for the economy, and as we've seen from this pandemic, a disaster for public health. So will the minister confirm that the principles of the judgement in the Uber case must apply not only to all Uber drivers but to all those on similar arrangements across the country? Let me say again, the government can't abrogate its responsibility by telling workers to fight for their basic protection through an employment tribunal system that barely functions following a decade of neglect. Working people need a government that will stand behind them. So will the minister commit now to legislate to end bogus self-employment and provide security to all gig economy workers?

Paul Scully [00:05:47] As I said, the government is clear that everybody deserves to be treated fairly at work and rewarded for their contribution to the economy. The judgement has been laid down. There are no further avenues for appeal now. And so Uber must respond accordingly. But in terms of clarifying employment status and rights, as the honourable member talked about, we are committed to continue to look at workers and workers' rights and also make sure that we can have a careful consideration of all of the questions in the rounds about the various workers status, the various workers' rights, whilst keeping flexibility within our employment market straightforwardly.

Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough, Con) [00:06:30] May I urge the government in these matters not to take an Uber Free-Market approach and to recall that the Conservative Party has a long history of defending workers from ruthless entrepreneurs? For instance, even in the 19th century, Disraeli resisted attempts by the then Liberal government to prevent workers from picketing if they were striking. So can the minister be absolutely robust today and say that we believe that this judgement is a landmark judgement and Uber must now accept that their hardworking drivers, many of them who have come from abroad and deserve protecting, are employed and deserve all the rights of fully employed people.

Paul Scully [00:07:20] He talks about Uber in isolation and clearly, Uber and any other number of operators within the Gig economy will be looking at that judgement, and it's important that they respond accordingly and the government will also respond accordingly, because we always recognise the valuable contribution made by those working in the gig economy and that people do value the flexibility it offers. But we must also make sure that those workers have adequately protected.

Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South, SNP) [00:08:01] I commend the shadow minister for securing this urgent question because in towns and cities across Scotland, the rise of the gig economy has been clear for all to see. But despite the flexibility that it does offer to some workers, they do not have the same rights and protections as others: no maternity leave, no holidays, no sick leave. This ruling by the Supreme Court should rightly change that. And I say should, because ultimately employment law remains in the gift of the Tories at Westminster rather than in the hands of Scotland's parliament. Now we're all worried about a bonfire on workers rights in this post-Brexit world. And we've all seen the government refuse to support the bill put forward by my colleague, the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North, to end the appalling practise of fire and rehire. Now, I've heard the minister's warm words, but this is an easy opportunity for him to a small step in the right direction when it comes to workers' rights. So will he confirm that his government fully backs the Supreme Court ruling and that they will make no attempt through legislation to overturn, undermine or circumvent it?

Paul Scully [00:08:58] I thank the honourable gentleman. The Supreme Court ruling is final and accordingly, we recognise the concerns around employment status and the potential for exploitation. We want to make it easier for individuals and businesses to understand what rights and tax obligations apply to them. And we're currently considering all options to improve clarity around the employment status. But in terms of fire and rehire that gentlemen mentioned, I did talk about the fact in previous opportunities that ACAS were charged to consider fire and rehire and gather evidence. They have done so. They reported back to BEIS and we will consider what they found.

Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe, Con) [00:09:55] This is a landmark ruling in the Supreme Court by the Supreme Court in the Uber case. Many people will be concerned that companies like Uber shouldn't be left to interpret what that means to themselves. And we'll see the disparity between the way different companies employing workers in the gig economy work. For example, a deliverer for Just Eat is an employee or one for Deliveroo. Will my Hon. Friend give serious consideration to the government legislating to create a level playing field now to stop these abuses.

Paul Scully [00:10:24] Well, as I've said, we will clearly look at employment conditions and make sure that employees can understand their conditions and their work status and tax payment conditions. There is a complication. The companies that he's mentioned each have different contracts. And so it's important that we have something that looks at all of those things in the round.

Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale, Lab) [00:10:55] Does the minister agree with the GMB union who fought this legal battle for four years, that now is the time for Uber to face up to his legal responsibilities, moral responsibilities and pay decent wages, decent holidays and as employees and actually it truly is now time to legislate, legislate, legislate, rather than looking again.

Paul Scully [00:11:24] Uber have to respond to the judgement which has come from the Supreme Court is final and we've talked about the fact that the gig economy offers individuals flexibility and provides opportunities for those who may not be able to work in more conventional ways. But with that, we must make sure that they are protected and that we have the balance between the flexibility with protecting employment rights.

Paul Bristow (Peterborough, Con) [00:11:56] Does my honourable friend agree that it's often been the UK internationally that has led the way on workers' rights? And what does he have to ensure that this continues?

Paul Scully [00:12:11] My honourable friend is absolutely right in terms of what we've done in workers rights, we've talked about the fact that in no way are we going to be diluting workers rights. We want to make sure that employers, workers, self-employed, understand exactly what their status means and their tax protection. But we have a number of rights that stand up incredibly well with comparisons to the EU and other countries around the world.

Zarah Sultana (Coventry South, Lab) [00:12:44] The court ruling has confirmed that taxes are a form of public transport, but they are the only ones to not receive coronavirus specific funding. Will the government urgently launch a sector-specific support package for taxis, set at the same pro-rata level as funding for the bus sector and applied retrospectively.

Paul Scully [00:13:07] Well, some taxi drivers will be able to have access to the self-employed income status and other protections in the discretionary grants available, but obviously, any further support will be outlined in the budget come next Wednesday.

David Johnston (Wantage, Con) [00:13:29] I welcome the high court judgement Supreme Court judgement. Companies like Uber can provide well-regarded flexibility, but they can also have staff retention problems globally. Does my honourable friend agree with me that companies like Uber should look at this judgement rather than try and find ways around it, look at what they can change, which will, amongst other things, likely help them keep their people for longer?

Paul Scully [00:13:55] I think my honourable friend raises a really good point. It's important that any employer does not seek to wriggle out of their responsibilities and retention is a sensible approach for any responsible employer.

Wes Streeting (Ilford North, Lab) [00:14:14] Doesn't the minister understand that these issues can't just be left to the courts and in this David versus Goliath battle between big multinational companies that are exploiting workers, avoiding tax and flouting safety rules, people need to see the government on their side. So with that in mind, will the government finally legislate to give Gig economy workers the protection they deserve? And further to the question made by my honourable friend from Coventry, isn't it finally time to give taxi drivers and private hire drivers the support they desperately need as a result of the impact the pandemic has had on the pound in their pockets?

Paul Scully [00:15:04] In terms of the coronavirus sport, as I said, any further support beyond the self-employed income schemes, the grant schemes and the discretionary grant schemes will be outlined in the budget by my honourable friend, the Chancellor. But the government has already taken a number of commitments through, including extending the right for a written statement of core terms of employment for workers, quadrupling the maximum fine for employers who treat their work workers badly, closing a loophole which these agency workers employed on cheaper rates and permanent workers. There are a number of areas which I won't go on, Madam Deputy Speaker, where we have progressed in this. But there's plenty more to do.

Nigel Mills (Amber Valley, Con) [00:15:48] Would the minister agree with the statement that actually encouraging people to be in an employment situation rather than a self-employment one, wherever possible, is the right thing to do? And so would he work with the Treasury to finally amend the tax system so we don't give a perverse incentive for people to pretend that their staff is self-employed when they're really employed. So people are actually in the right legal situation and two people doing the same job actually have the same legal and tax position.

Paul Scully [00:16:17] My honourable friend raises a really important point, but it is a complex issue. There's a complexity to the background as well. So it's only right that we take the time to consider how best to achieve a change that works for everybody. And we will certainly bring proposals forward in due course.

Janet Daby (Lewisham East, Lab) [00:16:37] The government has previously pledged that it will bring forward an employment bill to make the UK the best place in the world to work. If it is true, can the minister tell us why we're yet to see a bill or has it been kicked down the road indefinitely?

Paul Scully [00:16:57] No, it hasn't been kicked down the road. We're clear that any reforms we bring forward will require to consider the needs of our labour market today. That's why we're continuing to work with stakeholders to understand the needs and the challenges of modern workplaces, to ensure our vision of a labour market is fit for purpose. But we will bring forward the employment bill in due course.

Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet, Con) [00:17:20] Uber should be paying their drivers more because that's good for those drivers. But it's also good for the licenced taxi drivers who feel that they've been subjected to competition from Uber in recent years, which is aggressive, unfair and predatory.

Paul Scully [00:17:39] I am also the minister for London. And so I take a keen interest in these important issues and the people that whether the black cabs, that premium product to do amazing work throughout their icons of London. But we must get the balance right between having a free market, making sure that the flexibility of the labour market is not impeded by any encroachment on their workers' rights. And what's due to them.

Sarah Olney (Richmond Park, LD) [00:18:13] These contract conditions have been a feature of our economy for some time, which means that many thousands of workers have been illegally treated by companies like Uber for years. So can the minister tell me, what will the government be doing to ensure that those people are transferred to legal employment contracts and compensated for lost rights and benefits?

Paul Scully [00:18:32] Well, as I say, it's now for Uber to respond to that judgement. But it's a Supreme Court judgement, so there's no further right of appeal for them. They must adhere to their legal responsibilities.

Mike Wood (Dudley South, Con) [00:00:50] Flexible contracts can work well for some employees, but they mustn't be used by firms to avoid their responsibilities. Does my honourable friend agree that all workers should have the right to request a more predictable contract so that the balance of power does not lie exclusively with the employer?

Paul Scully [00:01:11] We've extended the right to a written statement of core terms and employment to all workers to make sure that they understand the conditions that they have and their status. And indeed we need to do more work in that area, which I'm looking forward to doing as we speak to people to make sure our labour market is that is is fit for purpose.

Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston, Lab) [00:01:35] Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a disgrace that people have had to fight court battles over four years to get basic employment rights, and the minister must recognise that the only reason that they're having to do that is that the government sat on their hands for too long. So will the government finally recognise that the trade-off between flexibility and security is an illusion and legislate so that everyone who is in work can get the basic protections they should be entitled to in a civilised society?

Paul Scully [00:02:08] The gig economy offers individuals flexibility and countless surveys have shown that the majority of people do like that flexibility, especially younger people, especially women. But there is always more that we can do to make sure that people understand exactly what they're signing up to and definitely must not be exploited.

Marco Longhi (Dudley North, Con) [00:02:42] Many unsung heroes of the pandemic include bus drivers, delivery drivers and taxi drivers with many of the latter often take medical staff and patients to the hospital and back. While the employment status of Uber drivers is a matter for the courts to determine, will my right honourable friend take this opportunity to thank them and indeed all taxi drivers for their efforts during these difficult times and for the risks they take?

Paul Scully [00:03:12] I'd like to join him in taking that opportunity to thank all of the transport workers and the taxi drivers, whether they are black cab drivers, whether they're private high drivers and indeed Uber drivers who have been taking people around throughout all of this. I speak to them on a regular basis when I've been requiring cab coming back from work on occasions. And they are in a difficult position and I'm wishing them well as we start to reopen the economy.

Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North, SNP) [00:03:48] My colleague, the Member for Glasgow South West, introduced to a bill give gig economy workers the rights they have just won in court. This was ignored, similar to my bill banning the Dickensian practise of fire and rehire, which both he and the Prime Minister termed unacceptable. Can he tell us when he will report to the House on the Fire and Rehire Bill?

Paul Scully [00:04:18] We will respond to the Fire and Rehire Bill when it actually comes through the parliamentary process, but ACAS has completed the work and shared their insights with BEIS officials. They conducted an independent, impartial fact-finding exercise with stakeholders, making sure there's confidentiality so that we can have a frank and honest discussion, but we will communicate our response to the findings in due course.

Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock, Con) [00:04:48] Following on from the previous question, I know that my honourable friend shares concerns felt across the house at the fire and hire tactics some companies have pursued. While our flexible labour market is something to be cherished, does he agree that employers, especially now have a responsibility to do right by their workers?

Paul Scully [00:05:09] My friend is absolutely right, it's absolutely sensible employment business to actually do right by employers as well as the moral thing to do.

Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth, Lab) [00:05:30] I would draw attention to register my membership of the GMB, who, of course, drove this historic victory along with others, and I work closely with drivers in my constituency, many of whom GMB and Unite members and want to praise the support the Welsh Labour government has given drivers in terms of grant support and PPE during the Covid crisis. Many of the drivers tell me that while most taxi and private car drivers charge on average £2.20 to £2.40 per mile, Uber only pays £1.10 to £1.25 per mile. Many drivers are getting into serious debt or even bankruptcy. So what is the minister going to do to actually ensure drivers at Uber and beyond get a fair day's pay from a fair day's work?

Paul Scully [00:06:07] We will make sure, first of all, that Uber must comply with this judgement, but secondly, we also want to understand and ensure that all employees, all workers exactly know their rights, know their status, so that they can actually look at a number of the other taxi firms available and hire firms available should they so require.m.

Selaine Saxby (North Devon, Con) [00:06:38] Ministers have been honest with the country that the government cannot save every job as we emerge from the pandemic, and we must ensure, however, that support is available for those who do find themselves out of work. So can he confirm that this government will prioritise making support and resources available to job seekers, as well as the provision of retraining for those who need it? And how can we ensure this is effective in very rural areas like North Devon?

Paul Scully [00:07:04] She's absolutely right. We talk a lot about the reopening of the economy, but the recovery of the economy is so important. That's why whilst we have protected jobs, livelihoods and businesses, we must make sure that people coming back into work can actually flourish and have a course of self-development. So that's why there are a number of schemes available in Jobcentre Plus now are being rolled out to improve skills.

Bob Blackman (Harrow East, Con) [00:07:36] The private transport market is a market and clearly, the position of black taxi cabs in London, the iconic black taxicabs and the rest of the private hire market have to be considered appropriately. I warmly welcome this decision on safeguarding Uber drivers' rights. But will he now look at doing a wholesale review of this market to ensure that Uber is not advantaged in this market in an unfair manner which then discriminates against black taxi drivers and indeed the rest of the private hire market?

Paul Scully [00:08:10] He's absolutely right to make sure that we do continue to look at the numbers of private high licences compared to black cab licences in London to make sure that there is no unfair advantage. But ultimately, there is a market there, as he rightly says.

Peter Grant (Glenrothes, SNP) [00:08:35] We can judge this government's sincerity in its claims to care about workers' rights by the fact the secretary of state for work is on record saying British workers are amongst the worst idlers in the world and of course, her own treat treatment of her staff would have got her sacked from almost any other job. So given that in just over two months, the Scottish people will for the sixth time in succession elect a Scottish government that cares about the rights of workers, isn't it time that employment legislation was delegated to the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish government, so the workers of Scotland can get the government that they vote for?

Paul Scully [00:09:11] I'm afraid the question just goes to show that the honourable member is more interested in votes than jobs and workers' rights, so that's why the employment rights bill will come before this house in due course.

Jacob Young (Redcar, Con) [00:09:27] On workers rights in Teeside, one of the myths the Labour Party is spreading around our freeport policy is on workers' rights. Our Teesside Freeport will create 18000 new jobs over the next five years. But can the minister confirm that if our Freeport bid is successful, there will be no downgrades in workers' rights?

Paul Scully [00:09:46] I know my honourable friend is a real champion for Teeside Freeport, and he's absolutely right. We've talked a lot here about Uber and about drivers, but our drive to ensure that we can have great workers rights in this country extends to all manner of employment, including the free port that he described and I hope he gets.

Mary Kelly Foy (City of Durham, Lab) [00:10:12] With taxi drivers facing mounting debt and tragically recent reports of at least five suicides in the sector, including three mentioning financial worries in the suicide note. Does the minister agree that drivers and operators need urgent access to extra financial support, including small business grants of £10,000 in line with other small businesses?

Paul Scully [00:10:43] There is support for some drivers and I appreciate there are people there are some people falling between the cracks. There is the self-employment scheme for some, there are discretionary grants which are available, which each local authority has to come up with their policy as to how they used that money, which could include drivers.