Petitions Committee meeting on arrangements for touring professionals and artists in the EU - unedited transcript

The Petitions Select Committee yesterday held a meeting on arrangements for touring professionals and artists in the EU. Witnesses were:

• Tim Brennan, Petition Creator at e-petitions
• Stuart Murdoch, Singer, Musician and Songwriter at Belle and Sebastian
• Anna Patalong, Operatic Soprano at Freelance
• Emma Pollock, Performer and Co-founder at Chemikal Underground Records
• Rakhvinder (Rakhi) Singh, Violinist and Co-founder at Manchester Collective
• Ian Smith, Founder at UKEartswork
• Yousef, DJ and Producer at Circus Recordings

The following is an unedited transcript based on voice-recognition software which will therefore contain typographical errors. The official transcript will be sent as soon as it is available.

Catherine McKinnell MP [00:00:16] Order, order! Thank you for joining us for today's session on arrangements for touring professionals and artists in the EU. Pete Wishart, chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee, is also taking part today. Today's session has been prompted by a petition calling for the government to seek a Europe wide visa free work permit for touring professionals and artists, which has been signed now by over a quarter of a million people. And we're joined by the person who started this petition, Tim Brennan.

[00:00:57] So to inform our work, we ran a survey of petitioners, music fans, artists and others working in the touring arts industry to hear their views. And more than fifteen thousand people completed the survey. So we're really grateful to everyone who took the time to share their views. And it's informed some of the issues that we will be discussing today. And then next week, we'll be holding an E petition session on this petition where members from across the House will be able to discuss the issues raised by the petition and have the minister respond. So ahead of that session, we thought it'd be useful to hear directly from people across the industry about how they will be affected by the changes to arrangements for touring professionals and artists and that work takes them to the European Union.

[00:01:59] The first thing we should do is for each of our witnesses here today to briefly introduce themselves. So I start with you, Tim, the petitioner.

Tim Brennan [00:02:16] I've been a freelance video tech for around 30 years, and broadly speaking, I deal with all the large screens in the video walls and stuff like that that you see at concerts and gigs.

Stuart Murdoch [00:02:36] I sing in the band Belle and Sebastian from Glasgow and we tour Europe and we tour all around the world.

Anna Patalong [00:02:49] I'm an operatic soprano, have been working professionally for about 10 years now and tour all over the world hopefully.

Rakhi Singh [00:03:05] I'm a violinist and a music director of a new organization called Manchester Collective. We are about five years old, but I've been playing professionally for 20 years.

Ian Smith [00:03:20] For the last 30 years, I've been a musician, producer, engineer, owner of two international agencies, work and then run from Filaret AC DC to Grammy Award winners and all UK work sponsor and also started a year ago, UK arts artwork for a free, noncommercial, apolitical website with exactly this in mind. So that's me.

[00:03:43] Thank you. And last but not least, you said hi, my name is Yusuf.

Yousef [00:03:48] I'm touring DJ. If you're on the road 20 years ago and a record label called Sex Recordings Major, a company called Cercas, which is based in Liverpool as a producer and an engineer and a mentor for you in the last 12 months.

Catherine McKinnell MP [00:04:07] Great. So I'll come back to you, Tim, as the petition creator. And if you could just say briefly why you started the petition. And also, have you been surprised by the level of support and interest it's received before it does?

Emma Pollock [00:04:32] I have been a musician and performer songwriter for a long time, over 20 years. But we also run an independent record company and have done for 25 years called Chemical Underground in Glasgow. And we run a recording studio that I'm sitting in a moment COP can team. And yes, we have quite an extensive experience of the music industry from both industry and performer as well.

Tim Brennan [00:05:08] Yeah. This is what I signed the petition because I wanted to make people aware that we face really well threats to our livelihoods as new music, touring professionals and to highlight why artists, music and creative need to be able to continue touring freely throughout the EU as we did prior to Brexit. I also want to say that I'm not really encouraged by the amount of support the petitions received, I checked just now, it was about 280000 signatures. You know, it's been signed by people from all walks of life, and it really does show that light music is a major importance to people's lives and stuff.

Catherine McKinnell MP [00:05:56] Great, thanks, Tim, and I'll just come quickly to you, Rocky and Hannah, because I know you signed a letter in the Times support in the Campaign for Musicians Passport. So I just wanted to ask what prompted you to get involved with that? And is it the first time you've been involved in a public campaign like this on your unmuted first?

Anna Patalong [00:06:20] Well, I've been an ambassador for the Incorporated Society of Musicians for about over two years now, so I've been stressing the importance of this issue for for a fair while touring. I mean, there are lots of types of touring. I think we have to remember. I mean, you know, bands with all that equipment and instruments and crew and everything right down to, you know, orchestras that have to plan for hundreds of people, to individuals like me that work contracts, contracts all over the place, jumping between countries, jumping in a very short notice. So it's it's it's a huge part of our lives. I mean, it's working in the EU has been over 50 percent of my income throughout throughout my career. I think on average, it's it's about 45 percent of every musician's income, which obviously translates to tax revenue in this country as well. So it's it's not only an important issue for us, it's an important issue for the UK as a whole.

Rakhi Singh [00:07:29] And so having toured around Europe and also further afield to sort of China, Australia and the states, you notice the difference in the level of paperwork you have to do. And for every single organized organization or individual, there's someone who will be have to do have to do all of that paperwork. Often on tours, you might visit a number of different countries. And if the requirements for all of these countries become vastly different, it would probably times 10 the amount of paperwork that will need to be done, which will probably just inhibit touring.

[00:08:06] So, Nick, did you have some questions you wanted to come in with?

Nick Fletcher MP [00:08:11] Thank you, Chair. I'd just like to start by saying another music fan, and I love Kirsty and live performances and I really miss the obviously not as much as you guys have put. Yes, 2020 was quite a sad day for for for not being able to say loud music.

[00:08:32] So I didn't realize I was going through this.

[00:08:38] How much of your problem problem is. So just starting with the recording artist first is is it is it is it the lack of how much of your income comes from merchandizing and ticket sales in comparison to what you would earn online? Because obviously I know an awful lot of musicians and a lot of money online these days. So you want to start with maybe Stewart on that one?

Stuart Murdoch [00:09:09] Yeah, I think we're probably about 60 percent during these days. The picture's changed completely in the last 20 years when musicians or people like us used to be able to make income from record sales. But we don't sell records anymore. It went to streaming and so did that completely debt. But touring became a miracle, actually. And the whole touring situation has been amazing. It's it's been like a bubble for the past 20 years. So that's that's been a godsend for us. And we really don't make that much from merchandise. We really don't make that much from streaming. We're all we're all hoping that will make money from streaming in the future. But touring is what we do to so that we can get back in the studio and make more records. So is our bread and butter.

[00:10:01] And Ana, would you like to answer that one, please?

Anna Patalong [00:10:07] Well, I don't have any merchandise. Not yet, not yet. So, no, there's none of that.

[00:10:17] And I mean, as Stewart says, I mean, streaming is there's no profit in it at all. So all of all of my work comes from like performance. And as I said before, you know, 50 percent of my entire career has been has been mostly based in the EU. And, yeah, the the visas that we're seeing at the minute that upwards of, you know, 400, 600 pounds. And and that's just it it's not going to be possible to to continue that way, especially if we move from country to country very quickly, I think in my particular profession is to jump in. So if you get sick, you will get fined up in the morning and a company will say, can you can you sing this role tonight? And then you'll be on a flight and you'll be out of Germany or France or wherever to to sing the role that evening. I mean, obviously, the pandemic has in a way, perhaps given some people a bit of breathing space, although not everybody. But it's also it's masking a lot of the problems. As soon as the performing arts world is back up and running again, I think we're really going to see the problems, the vessel brewing underneath at the minute.

Yousef [00:11:50] Oh, yes. I mean, there's a whole ecosystem around just getting towards the the touring, whether it be in the U.K., Europe or beyond, particularly my scene.

[00:12:01] You have to to to be mildly successful deejay these days. You have to be able to make music, have a record label within your own events, maybe have a radio show, do podcasts. You have to really build this momentum to build a fan base to be able to get these U.K., European and international gigs. And like Stewart says, it's the lion's share of the income. Now, if after all this effort and you've created a slight cultural hope for yourself in your own country, then you're unable to talk because even for the positives of the Internet, you can put your music out and it can be heard all over the world very, very quickly. And I disagree about the Spotify, actually. I think sometimes at the moment Spotify can be an OK steady income if you're prolific enough. But the important thing is soaring, like unassessed 50 percent plus, if not more of my gigs around the year or definitely in the EU and then America, Australia, Asia and then some in the UK looked at the hub and the heartbeat of the whole electronic music scene in the UK. And we export that as a cultural phenomenon, really from electronic music and directly into the EU. You know that it's been more and more difficult to to venture out into. It's going to be it's going to be detrimental for an.

[00:13:28] Thank you for that.

Emma Pollock [00:13:32] Yeah, I just wanted to pick up on on the mention of streaming it, it's very difficult to have this conversation without touching on the changing landscape of the music industry over the last particularly the last decade. In fact, we as as a company that basically sells records and sells recorded music as a business, we have we have seen an absolute and complete decimation of our income is probably down to about 10 to 20 percent of the equivalent of what it would have been with the same access, a 10 or 15, 20 years ago. And so what's actually happened is that what basically used to be that you would you would you would go and play life as an act all over the world in order to sell records, because those records were the actual thing that created the money. And it's completely flipped. It's a really interesting situation now that you put a record out now as a calling card for people to come and see you play live. And this is really the way that most musicians are actually managing to just eke out some kind of existence. And for many of us, that existence, as well as a part time career. No, because it isn't the same, you know, that doesn't really like the same opportunity to call a full time career for many of us. But also, as I have to say that as a record company, we also see quite a lot of our artists really quite successful in certain parts of Europe. And so they need access to that territory. They need easy access and flexible access to be able to get over there in order not just to plea to to create visibility and awareness so that this streaming income can continue. But also we're still selling physical records at gigs. And at the end of the day, the the profitability of the physical record versus a streaming equivalent is roughly 10 to one. So the profit is absolutely huge. It makes a massive difference to be in front of an audience, in a room. And then everybody goes to the Murchie table at the end and people tend to want to spend money on something they can take home and touch and play. And as so was a huge, huge benefit there, too, to the access that actually comes off.

Nick Fletcher MP [00:15:42] Thank you for that. Laughs and comes on to my next question is, how important is your public profile and popularity and able to perform in the UK from your music audience, not just in the UK, in Europe and beyond? So it's about a public profile are important. Not is how can I go back to Stewart with that and maybe tell you?

Stuart Murdoch [00:16:05] Yes, public profile. Well, you know, if Lady Gaga is Manchester United, then Coldplay are maybe Norwich or QPR, we're sort of Alexandra or Doncaster Rovers, we're sort of middling. Emma talks about the some people going part time. I know a lot of people that had to go part time. We hope that we don't have to become part time. We consider ourselves a working band. And when we go on tour, the margins are so fine. That's why it's the charges for visas and getting old, paying for all your crew to come with you. We roll quite big. You know, we take upwards of 20 people with us even though we just play in theaters in Europe. So the margins are very fine. It's almost like exponential. If you get above a certain level, then you can start making you can start making real money. But at our level, nobody's getting rich. We're doing because we love it. We have this phrase. We're just trying to keep the party going. You know, we just want to keep the party going into our 60s or something like that. And we're happy to do it. But if we could just I mean, this could be we might be OK. But bands just to our level and just below are really going to to struggle with this extra with the extra money for a crew and for visas and all that kind of thing.

Nick Fletcher MP [00:17:33] I love the phrase out of keeping the party guy who great to use you on Monday. I want the party to keep going for all of us. Would you like to answer that?

Anna Patalong [00:17:47] Yeah, I'd just like to say, I mean, so raising public profile, I mean, having access to those markets is an important part of raising the profile. I mean, especially in my sector of the music industry. I mean, I the international competitions, the people. And I certainly understand that's where I got a lot of my my work in the EU. I mean, the the whole music profession, it's it's about a complete cultural exchange. So you you have to have that exchange in order to to build your profile, in order to to get the work, to get the the money, to get the tax revenue for the UK and and without these without access to these countries or at least, you know, the access that we have currently, it's we as a as a nation look far less attractive to employers on the continent at the moment.

[00:18:47] Thank you. Because I just got to move on because I spent time on a lot of questions to get.

[00:18:53] This one's really funny. And in turn it said basically, could you describe your experiences of planning or taking part in tours in Europe prior to graduate and covid-19? So I intend to go.

Ian Smith [00:19:08] I'll drop into that. Very happy to answer. Thanks for asking the question. And one thing to say, though, this is about although this focus, of course, is on musicians because of the petition and technicians associated with that, we're talking about the entire Creative Industries tour that's dancers, actors, filmmakers, everybody. And given the amount of revenue that brings and also the benefits in terms of good health psychology for everybody and soft power throughout the world, we have been stymied a little by where we sit at the moment. I started the site the UK Europe was working for a long time ago to try and give clear information to try and eliminate some of the problems before we started, before we actually exited the EU, we could enter the Schengen area and play anywhere. We liked the form anyway. We liked with no need for colonies, no need for any form of work permits at all. What we now have a situation is that in some countries we have up to 90 days in any one year, that's Germany and France permit free. Netherlands is six weeks in 13, Spain is zero. We need work permits there. Portugal's the same. And we've got a mixed picture of patchwork everywhere else where in terms of trying to plan logistically or as one of the musicians may need to drop into a country for a couple of days work, many countries will allow you a certain amount of time without work permits. Some zero technicians who are on the road all the time often will go off. One or two are not there, maybe in a different genre, totally or a different discipline, and they can no longer do that effectively. So that remains in effect. EU technicians will take those jobs and also for musicians and creatives generally, we'll find ourselves having to focus on those countries at the moment that give us a free access to their markets. It's a nightmare. The current situation whereby a musician or a creative might drop into a country for a few days and Schengen area now officially, they'll need a calendar for any equipment, even a laptop or a microphone. Technicians with their toolboxes may go separately. Officially, they would need a car, which is a a very difficult situation. And one thing I would really like to say, because everyone has alluded to it, the live and creative industries engine room, the power plant that drives everything is life across the whole of the industry. It generates most requirements for merchandise, records, albums, films, whatever, and those industries will also be affected. The merchandizing industries in the UK quite I've been hearing a lot across Europe because I work a lot in mainland Europe and the UK. That merchandise for bands or artists going into the EU will now have their merchandise made in the EU to avoid import duties and VAT because it's simpler, we will get a quid pro quo, but that will be limited because obviously the size of the market in the EU and the UK. So logistically it's a little bit of a nightmare. There are some solution. Which I'll allude to later, if people want me to, that I've been working on for quite some time. Well, that's where we sit at the moment. Nice work permits. And of course, the bigger issues are things like Cup of Tage, which I won't go into GoodGym everyone will fall asleep if I start talking about sabotage. But it is a major issue. Maybe Tim would like to say something.

[00:22:56] Thank you for that. And it's in part, I think if we can if time allows you solutions, that obviously be something that we could probably do with libertarians, some major Chair if you're a simple, very straightforward and come back to later.

Ian Smith [00:23:09] I think Tony was going to ask about some of those anyway a bit later. So I think that will we will get to that. Definitely. So can Tim just answer that question then, please?

[00:23:20] Yeah, same as Ian said, we as freelancers often move from tour to tour, looked at her and we could be out for months on end.

Tim Brennan [00:23:31] So the whole sort of time limit is a big issue for us. And the other thing is also a big issue for us now, and it's very, very real, is that we I've been contacted by a lot of different freelancers and we're getting a situation where our work is being canceled.

[00:23:56] So that was booked ahead. And people are concerned that work sites, because they're looking for EU passport holders. So people like myself with just a UK passport, we've got work, we're getting companies sending our email is asking for EU status. I mean, I I've been contacted by an American company. I used to work for quite a lot. And they've said to me, well, we can't use you anymore because the extra red tape is going to be it's going to amount to too much.

[00:24:31] So, you know, as UK freelancers, we really do look like we're going to be missing out massively.

[00:24:38] It's not just about the EU to us. You know, a lot of time you'll get a UK, US, Banjul coming into the UK, they'll pick up someone like myself and and and countless other technicians will take them on tour around Europe. And then at the end of that, they'll say, do you want to come off to Australia? Do you want to go to South America or you want to move around? And that that's where lots of my work comes from. And if if we lose out on that EU part, that crucial part where where they first meet us, then we lose out on all of that worldwide work, you know, so you've got 200000 people to work in in this industry. And we always will risk losing our jobs, basically.

Nick Fletcher MP [00:25:35] It's the behind the scenes what's required to put it all together.

[00:25:43] And is there much difference with that with regard into festivals as well? I don't know. Who's the best person to ask on there is important is. I don't know. I think so.

Ian Smith [00:25:54] Well, I just come in as an agent as well. I run to music agencies have done for 20 years working with around 300 artists worldwide, including a lot of third country nationals. So I'll defer to Tim in a moment. But what is required when you're putting together either a tour or is Stuart, an unusual sight dropping in for a couple of gigs, which is equal importance and relevance? The tour you have to look at both in terms of cost and logistics. So the logistics of being able to fly in or move between different countries. Obviously within Changan itself, there are no physical borders. None are actually maintained or very rarely. Sometimes Hungary or someone else will do that. So what you've got to look at is in this situation now with Brexit and the requirements is the country nationals, you have to potentially cope with the current situation, the work permit situation and something that's not been mentioned yet. We often have to hire in well, ask a promoter, an event person to hire, in fact, line those amplifiers or guitars and instruments of all descriptions that will add to cost for the promoters. And I've noticed over the last 18 months when I've been speaking to promoters in Europe at festivals and smaller venues, we're beginning to see what's happening after Brexit. Well, we're going to have to ask you to supply more equipment. So that's an extra cost for the promoter. And that's been depressing the market and employability of UK based artists because we have to negotiate that in order to reduce their carbon ECLSS. Karni is a basic three hundred sixty pounds plus a percentage of your value of what you're taking. So it means obviously, if you can just take a guitar and a laptop, you don't have to take amplifiers ET, then that's a reduced cost. So you have to do BUTLIN higher. You have to do logistics with transport travel, which is a capital problem. You have to now do individual work permits across the whole of Europe. The whole of 27 being sovereign states can have their own regulations and requirements. And then on top of that, if you're bringing in merchandise, which I have to say for a lot of younger artists, it means the difference between profit and loss. Then you have to arrange VAT fee payments and import duty payments into the EU and vice versa. Ironically, I'll say this last thing. Ironically, I'm a UK registered sponsor. I've been for many years. So EU nationals, because of which I'll come back to later, because of what has happened in terms of the UK government actually giving 90 days with just the certificate of sponsorship, the same as seasonal workers are actually easier for them to come into the UK one territory than it is for EU nationals to go into the 27. So logistically, that's what we have to do when we're negotiating and working out how to actually work it. So that's true of everybody. I'm spoken about in terms of film industry, in terms of dances, opera, classical music as well, sometimes for longer periods of time, which is what I saw. Simon Rattle, of course, has taken German nationality so he can work around each of the twenty seven without having to deal with any of it, although I don't think he's got a problem getting any work. So I think that's hopefully in a nutshell. The other thing sorry, tech crew, you may have to stauss tech crew locally. We prefer to take them with us because it's easier in terms of language and the crew know the production very well because they work on it all the time. May be in for a long period of time, but what now? We may look at a situation where the bigger production companies will use the UK crew for the UK and then split it across different EU crews, which will begin to bring the quality of what we do down. It's it's much, much more difficult. It's not impossible, but it'll still work well in terms of bringing down the the availability and the possibility of being able to work in Europe, we are in a something of a mess. There are ways to ameliorate that and bring it down and make it easier. But it's those of Detroit that's the situation we need when we organize it.

Nick Fletcher MP [00:30:24] So thank you for that. And just to your staff, is there any specific challenges for deejay's?

Yousef [00:30:33] Well, yeah, absolutely, I think in terms of talk about touring and setting up a tour, we tend to do two or three countries over the weekend and sometime within the same day. It's not unusual to do, say, like Belgium on a Thursday, in France on a Friday, a week, the Saturday afternoon, and then say Germany Saturday night and maybe Sunday. But so far, along with the guys stuff, that's pretty, pretty standard. So they go through in the height of the summer. But if you go through all this kind of DBEIS complications and the difficulties, but I've figured out like instances of 15 countries with different restrictions. So having to kind of navigate each of them every week and it's going to be almost near impossible and unbelievably expensive, which takes us back to, if you will, like a newer deejay trying to break through when your music has connected in, say, Germany or Greece or one of these places and they get offered a gig and it's going to be really hard for you to get to do it. Now, one thing I want to make clear as well, with the community, it's very important to kind of get up the ladder by doing these key gigs now and say there's an important gig in Germany or Baesler or Spain or something like that, and you will see it on the line or for the bell or you you can put on your essential deejay CV that you've played these places. But it's going to kind of attract all the promoters, give them kind of, for want of a better phrase, confidence in you as a as a ticket seller or as a good thing. They also want to be to enhance your reputation. And it's really important that you have to do the stripes, essentially. So I guess much like the Beatles in the 60s, they went over to Germany and they earned the stripes. They built the fan base and they came back. And in a similar way, it's essential for deejays to get the kind of treatment that will build up the audience in these places. And that's how it goes. And particularly in the VAT now with Spain having like a zero visa policy at the moment, I would say for almost all of my industry, America is the absolute epicenter of and so is Madrid and Barcelona. And it's so many and vitally important gigs. And, of course, the amount of people we're going to have before it's going to be really, really, really complex for people to even exist with a lot of the UK GDP. So it's going to be a very complicated scenario unless something is solved pretty quickly.

Nick Fletcher MP [00:33:10] Is there any specific challenges for being part of an ensemble that we've not already covered that's to honor and and luckily those.

Anna Patalong [00:33:24] Yeah, I mean, obviously, as part of an ensemble, it's it's kind of all of this, you know, quadruples. It's you know, if you're if you're part of an orchestra or the carnets, it's just it's hugely expensive. I mean, I think it's been mentioned before by pretty much everyone that each of the EU countries now has to find their own way of of what visa arrangements they want to make with us. It's I think also a lot of EU countries aren't quite sure what what they're going to do because they didn't actually expect boneyards off of the visa waiver agreement to be rejected. And this is the visa waiver agreement is used as a general term across the world. So the UK, all the artists in the UK are now in a worse position than musicians in in the Congo and Colombia.

[00:34:26] So we're we're urging that the the UK speaks to the union about bespoke visa waiver agreement, which won't cover work permits, but it will cover the visa arrangements, which would go a long way to help the situation.

[00:34:46] Thank you for that.

Rakhi Singh [00:34:47] I'd just like to echo everything that was said, but particularly our you said we'll carry on working, but I think for some people it actually will mean they will stop being able to work in smaller groups. If you're going to make a loss from going abroad, it simply won't be able to do it.

Catherine McKinnell MP [00:35:04] So as much as everybody would like to keep working in some instances, I just don't think it will be possible that some of these jobs will will never get to that point of establishing themselves because they can't, as you described it, very well.

Yousef [00:35:23] Can I just put one more point in which is able to it's you know, at a time when myself, I guess most people on this panel of the spent the last 11 months literally get no support from the government or next to nothing for all sorts of reasons to be told. And the likelihood of us going back to work at some point it's going to be supremely difficult. So it's not only a year, 18 months of almost no income. When we go back, it's going to be really complex to even kind of generate what we need.

Anna Patalong [00:35:57] So I that I think that's I mean, that's I think that's that's really important because I mean, really, this is this is one of the easiest trade deals to do, because all all that needs to happen is we need the access. I mean, we have been creating the creative industries have been creating 111 billion pounds for the UK economy. That was in 2019. We will continue to do that if we're allowed and if we're not able to, we are going to need far more support from the government than than we are receiving now. You're going to have far more unemployed people. You're not going to get the tax revenue that we are bringing in currently. So it's it's in everyone's best interests to to find a solution that works.

Nick Fletcher MP [00:36:48] I don't think the government realizes and obviously doing what they're doing what they can, and I'm pretty sure they'll move on fairly swiftly. We saw the news last night and it is becoming obviously quite, quite apparent on the issues that you are actually having to go through at this moment in time. So this is an evidence session to see how those on the government understand what you're actually going through. So I think it's very important that you do you don't get to know exactly what you're going through is important. I've just got one final chance to comment, Chair.

Emma Pollock [00:37:51] Yeah. I just wanted to make a very broad point that I know that we are likely to talk about a lot of practical issues that are barriers at the moment. That's where the focus will be today. But we mustn't forget where this legacy that we have of 60 years of music has come from. It's it's come from an extraordinary growth and development of talent. There were basically seen since since the 50s and the 60s that has developed into one of the most one of the most prevalent popular music scenes and classical and folk and all visionaries all across the world. We have a 10 percent share of the global recorded music industry is absolutely extraordinary. And the you know, the fact that Chemical Underground as a Glasgow independent record company has basically been able to say in pretty much most of our artists for the world, that is an extraordinary testament to the faith the artists all around the world put into the reach that a UK based music company actually has today. And if we're not careful with what happens next, we're going to start to erode that standing and we're going to start to erode the the you know, the the potential that the new artists that are coming up at the moment are already actually find it extraordinarily difficult as a result of what streaming has done to that income. We must protect the life industry and access to it. And for our crew, that is equally talented and extraordinarily good at what they do, again, because of the experience that being a UK crew member has actually given them.

Tonia Antoniazzi MP [00:39:41] Yeah, great. Thanks, Chair. And now the questions I've got about the impact, of course, Brexit changes to work and travel rules. And Ian, you have actually touched on quite a few of the questions. So if you don't feel like you have to repeat yourself, I think we need to pick out some of them. So you create this website that provides artists with Visa and private information for twenty nine countries. What did your research tell you about the burden of new requirements that artists and touring professionals face?

Ian Smith [00:40:15] OK, very happy to answer that. I started this, as I say, a year ago to help its its noncommercial. We just want to try and help the industry. The situation is that, of course, we're all now treated as third country nationals. And to come back to what was said a moment ago about still being able to work, we will, but we've added burdens. The main burden is going to be Carni, the Visa and work permit situation. In fact, those terms are used interchangeably to avoid confusion. Let's just say work permits, because we have 90 days in any one agency at the moment as tourists for non work. So the deal is this before we could work in any of the twenty seven and obviously some of the countries that were part of the economic area as well, what we now have to do is navigate not only differences across each of the countries, but also changes that will happen in time. There's been a lot of talk about bilateral deals with individual countries which will take years, if not decades to try and sorts out.

[00:41:28] So as I said before on the website, you'll see 27 countries, maybe a few more, but also links through to the official government websites for each of those countries.

[00:41:39] What's required so that a musician or an actor or a dancer or filmmaker may go to, for example, Germany and France more often now because it's easier in terms of work permits. You can go and you can have 90 days in any one, eight, two sorry, 90 days in a year.

[00:41:56] In Germany. They also allow VAT for support staff. So that's technicians, et cetera. But in Czech Republic, it's 14 days in any one year in Poland, 30 days in any one year in Spain and Portugal.

[00:42:09] As we said, nothing unless you get a work permit in advance. So it's far, far more complex. And it's just going to create a situation which Barnea offer and the argument I can return to in detail later, because I have a I have a potential solution for that. And I've been talking to people in the industry about maybe that's not for this moment. But in terms of carnets, there's also quite a simple solution to keep us going until we can get that cleared later. So the restriction is in whenever we go over a Schengen border, UK-EU in both directions, we're going to need a Karnig. We will not require a visa because we're non visa nationals. Even if you going to Italy or Spain or Portugal, you don't need a visa unless you're working. The other thing that I must say now this very important.

[00:43:06] We have a lot of UK nationals living in the EU and we have UK nationals who maybe have residence in an EU country. They only have the right to work in that host country.

[00:43:21] And the UK, unless you're an Irish passport holder, you can carry on working everywhere. You still need a card, but you can carry on working. So we've got this differential right everywhere, which is very difficult because you may including your if it's a band or a theater retinue, you might have EU nationals, you might have Irish nationals, you might have UK nationals.

[00:43:44] But in order to tour all of that area from now on, you have to have in place a very clear idea of what the allowances are. One last thing to say on this. It's not an issue in terms of one person in that retinue. If you've got mixed allowance within that retinue, you've got 90 days in a year for Germany, for everybody. But if you're an EU citizen and work as long as you like, if you're a British citizen living in Austria or Czech Republic or whatever, you can only work in that country and that's out of your allowance of one hundred and ninety days in any one year. It's this is why there's been a lot of confusion. Also, members in parliament have got a little confused. So the 30 days in UK, 90 in Europe, it's not it's 90 days in Europe, general touring, it's 90 days free. If you have a certificate of sponsorship in the U.K., I can do a bit more detail on that if you want to.

Tonia Antoniazzi MP [00:44:52] That's the. But what I wanted to get to was everybody else is at different stage, aren't they? And how aware of you are you of these issues? I think increasingly aware is the answer. But what what what impact is it really going to have on you when your career. If I go around everybody.

[00:45:14] Right. Let me start with Tim.

Tim Brennan [00:45:17] Well, as I said earlier, the impact on my my personal career and the career of freelancers in the U.K., I see that well, we would just be passed over. People are going to start using EU technicians in place of us because it's cheaper. They're not going to need to do the twenty seven Lord visas and permits that they require and. Yeah, I mean, that that's that's the big thing for us, I think we'll just end up losing our network, really.

Tonia Antoniazzi MP [00:45:59] OK, and what's the issue for you?

Emma Pollock [00:46:03] Well, twofold, I guess, because I'm here with two hats on, I guess, and personally, I basically lose access to shoes in Europe, particularly Spain is an interesting one. It's a country that I've seen a certain amount of success in over the years. It's going to be it's going to be very, very difficult to to to do that. You know, from a record company perspective, all of our artists are going to be impacted with regards to potential to tour their own personal income will be impacted. Our record sales will be are our sales. Sales of actual records will be impacted as a result of them not being able to physically get into the country to tour, to sell records. Awareness will drop. It feels as if everything about the UK music experience will shrink, which really isn't is not a good thing.

[00:46:59] OK, and Stuart.

Stuart Murdoch [00:47:03] Now, I just want to back up what is missing is it's such a pity we're the rock and roll country, you know, it's like it's like you want to send the English football team off to play the World Cup, but they're only allowed to play nine players. It really is going is it's going to put the kibosh on us. So we we're doing so great. And I've got to speak for our crew as well. You know, they're not just technicians. Our crew are part of the band. And it would be so sad. We we have to take them everywhere. You know, we love those guys and they're so skilled. You know what you were saying earlier on that it would be we probably have to hire crew in Europe to do their job. We wouldn't do that. So we've probably not played the gig. And then again, I have to speak for bands that are smaller than us or up and coming bands. We are the margins for us are fine. For folk below us know they're looking at not playing the gig OK and racking.

Rakhi Singh [00:48:01] Well, most classical music organizations in the U.K. are made up of a management team and the artist, and I just think it's going to be a huge drain on the resources of the management team. I know to organize a tour to China. The office will work for a year to make that happen. And and you will be able to take one off gigs in Europe. It'll be a nightmare to organize tours. And it means that the resources that have to go into that, I just don't think there's the space within classical music organizations for them to do that, because everybody works really hard as it is in order to maintain, to survive and to keep our classical music industry thriving and leading. And there just isn't the space. People work extra hours as it is. So it's just a lot more resources.

Anna Patalong [00:48:58] Yeah, I mean, personally, as everyone has said, it's the fear of contracts being suspended, withdrawn, more. More money going into Visa's, agents working every hour God sends to actually try and figure out what what's going on with these things. I mean, I think we have to remember that this isn't just it's not just for us and the people that are working here now. I also work for British Youth Opera. He brings the next generation coming through and there are tens of thousands of opera singers, let alone every other type of musician you can possibly think of coming through the ranks. This is going to affect all of these people for generations to come.

[00:49:42] The classical music world in the UK is completely oversaturated as it is. This is why we spend 50 percent of our time going abroad to work so that, you know, we we have this cultural exchange.

[00:49:57] People have temporarily, we hope, left the industry already because of covid and they've been propping up the economy. A perfect example is, is Nicky going off to to volunteer for vaccinations today? People have turned to ambulance drivers, supermarkets. We these are all performing artists that no longer have have the work and need money. And and what's the reward going to be for them when when we come out of this?

[00:50:27] We need these these arrangements to be put in place as quickly as possible.

Yousef [00:50:35] I mean, it's going to echo what everyone said, really. I mean, there's so many complications of myself. I mean, most people spend so much time in Spain. I could go to Spain without an exaggeration, maybe 15, 20 times a year. And the will be there, Portugal, Malta, looking to Italy. Italy is another huge market for electronic music. And this is going to be made very, very complex, but wants to kind of continue that. And like I said, we all work extremely hard. And at one point I want to quickly, because most deejays are not just kind of we play records of music at the weekend. We're all full time entrepreneurs. We spend all week working on all of our record labels or events or anything to contribute to this moment. So we could do like a 40 hour week and then we travel at the weekends. And so we want to get flights in and out and do what we've got to do and go home usually to our families these days. And with all these additional complications, like getting a visa to go to India or something, even though that's been set in stone for many years, it's still so complex, so time consuming and expensive. You have to get the queues and then wait all day, all these things. This is going to be the norm for all these places in Europe. It's going to be it's going to be devastating.

Ian Smith [00:52:01] I do answer to because there's something that's been said recently on another subcommittee of the EU Services Subcommittee of the 21st of January. If it's been said by the government that they're going to help Brazil with payments for work permits and carnets money is not the problem. It's not the problem at all. It's about access, ease of access to the markets. And so I think that's really important to note. And I know that everyone's saying it's expensive, it's more complicated, more admin, and we don't have enough capacity. But it is not about money, really, although it would be great to have some in the situation we're all in at the moment. It's essential. Sorry. That's what I want to say by all means.

Tonia Antoniazzi MP [00:52:47] Well, it ties back in quite nicely, actually, Ian, because, you know, in our survey, nearly 24 percent, 24 percent of the respondents said they typically visit six or more countries in one trip. You know, we've spoken about where you have spoken at length about how that isn't feasible and that are all separate requirements for each state. You've also touched upon a solution. What would you like to take this opportunity now, then, to talk about that solution?

Ian Smith [00:53:19] OK, bear with me, everybody, because it's not too long, but it is detailed. I've been working on this for the last couple of weeks. As I mentioned earlier, I'm a UK sponsor, which means that I can give out certificates of sponsorship to third country nationals coming to the UK. I am solely responsible for doing that and I am solely responsible for monitoring them whilst they are in the UK. The reason I'm telling you is this Mr Barnier, it was reported, had made an offer to the UK for work permits, visa free access for ninety days in only one year. UK government said that wasn't the. I'm not here to talk about blame or whatever else, it doesn't matter, it's irrelevant. We need a solution, so.

[00:54:05] EU insisted on 90 days without any documentation or requirement for a work permit. That's partly down to their acquis in the law relating to the EU treaty. But I'm not going to go into that. Everyone will go crazy. The reality is, if the UK had not insisted on a certificate of sponsorship, which in everybody else's language, the work permits. And because rightly so, they said they wanted to keep control of the border and take back control, freedom of stop freedom of movement. So the theme is this In one year's time, approximately on the 1st January 20, 22, the ETS system comes into place. This is the new VAT anybody who's done any in it's like an ETS in the US. It's a little different, but ETS will require anybody and everybody who is from a third country to request access to the Schengen area in advance. If it's not a visa, it's just preauthorization. If the UK government could do something similar and in the same breath take back more control of our borders and security and stop freedom of movement that could sit on top of the visa system in the UK by simply having a tick box on either system. You could be an exempted occupation, so if Bonnier had offered 90 days in any year for creative's on the UK could offer the same thing without sponsorship by instituting a similar system, we would then instantly get rid of that requirement for a work permit in the UK and work in any one of the EU. Twenty seven. That's my solution.

Tonia Antoniazzi MP [00:55:54] So why wouldn't the government do this?

Ian Smith [00:55:58] I can't think of a good reason the government wants to exert greater control of our borders, the government want to stop freedom of movement. We already have a visa system called Tier five, creative and sporting and permitted engagements which are no longer necessary unless you're over in the UK for a long period of time. So if we help, by the way, the killer on all of this is a certificate of sponsorship. It's just been confirmed to me by a visa expert will cost the actual sponsor nothing.

[00:56:34] Obviously, the certificate of sponsorship sponsor may charge something Bratman, 20, 30, 40 pounds, whatever, but the reality is the sponsor, upon putting in our information from the EU creative's, is totally responsible for issuing that certificate and sponsorship. If it's flagged on the system, which I've never known in 15 years, then obviously it would be stopped. But at the moment that is the only thing that is required for 90 days work in the UK for an EU creative or possibly technician. So that's my potential solution, which I've been reaching out to various people in the industry over the last couple of weeks. It came upon me on a long walk. So there you go.

Tonia Antoniazzi MP [00:57:22] And that's quite interesting because, you know, we've spoken about the impact that it's going to have on British workers and how British crew might not be able to travel with you and you might have to use it Ukraine. So would that solve that problem?

Ian Smith [00:57:38] Yes, because it would be an exemption exempted cattery and what Barnier said they were offering for business people, et cetera. The UK, from my perspective, I can't see a downside to this from the government side because they're exercising control over freedom of movement, because you have to apply for access to the UK before you even come here. I guess there in the United States, that would be a cost. Of course, it's a computer system, so maybe it will take 20 years to. No kidding. Maybe if they put a lot of resources in, we could do that. EU ETS comes in first in January 2022 and has to be enforced totally by the end of next year. That means we have no choice. We have to do this anyways. Third country nationals, if you're students in any state, you don't have to. So if you have a system on top of the UK visa system, whatever it might be called, it is compatible with ETS. You can have a tick box on both for exempted occupations. And the immigration officer at the border says, looks OK. Oh, your. Are you coming in for work? Yes, I am. But I'm on this. And let's face it, if a creative's coming in for work without any equipment, they shouldn't. But they could go into Changan and work without letting the authorities know, which is a very, very bad idea. But there is no reason in my head and I've thought about it and thought about it unless there's a treaty problem and Barnier did not have the authority to make that offer. We're exploring that with other people through the media sector at the moment. And I assume but it could be a game changer. And there's another one for carnets, but I'll give you that a little later on.

Tonia Antoniazzi MP [00:59:23] Yeah, OK. Well, I was going to touch on politics, but what I'll do is I'll come back to the Chair because I'm very aware of time.

Catherine McKinnell MP [00:59:29] No, no, to be honest, I was going to say that I was I thought you were going there. And because I was going to ask, so what's the solution for Carnets?

Ian Smith [00:59:41] It's really easy. This one, it's easier than fortius and whatever the UK government might do.

[00:59:46] OK, the solution for carnets, many of our community creatives, we're used to finding solutions very quickly to big problems getting on stage when the power's gone off or whatever. The reality is, for many, many, many years there has been an informal exemption for musicians carrying through instruments across borders or other items. The same is true for toolboxes, for crew. I checked that this morning. Strictly speaking, they there should be a Kanae for a tool box, etc. But what we need from the UK government urgently is clarification on whether or not we still have that clearance for what are known as portables. So if the UK Customs will allow us to carry through, say, a guitar or a violin or a cello or a bagpipe, some pipe is right to say so. If you can do that, you obviate the need for smaller outfits and solo musicians to even have a car on a. So it means if you're carrying through your your instrument, that's fine, I'll just say very quickly, Qana is normally all the equipment that you would normally imports and exports on a temporary basis. So you may have 10 guitars, but you can have a slip that says I'm just taking one or two. Well, they're expensive. They're are necessary. Necessary. They are necessary because of international trade agreements and law. But there is a way around this. If we could get clarity on portal's from the UK government via Customs and Excise and HMRC and equally within Schengen for the EU, we need that clarification from them then anybody carrying through that a laptop, if they're going and they walk through the green channel, the law is I won't go into too much detail on this, but the law is that there is a legal treaty or legislation that allows you to self declare a small portable instrument by just walking through the green channel. You do not have to physically say anything, will publish all this on the website later anyway. But I'm more than happy at the end of this session to send to the committee the findings that we have and any references which I'm very, very happy to send you. Because if we can reduce the cap and reduce carnets and get to a point where we can have this exemption, not obviously for musicians and artists who are staying for more than three months in the EU will not get that, but it makes a massive difference.

Catherine McKinnell MP [01:02:32] I've got I've got many questions, but I'll bring Peter in and then we can hopefully have some time with them at the end. TikTok to come in now.

Pete Wishart MP [00:02:38] Yes, thank you. And hello, everybody. Nice to see you. And first of all, to Stuart Murdoch always thought that Elizabeth should the Leicester City of British music, which I think is going to win. And I think in my 15 years as a musician of 20 years as a member of parliament, I've never known set conditions like this where the governments come into conflict with musicians. I just can't think of one example or one issue, which, you know, has been played. Sir Elton John to the culture secretary. It just hasn't happened. And we had a whole slew of our top performing artists would write a letter, quite a passionate letter, just to put the condition of the industry that concerns about what's happening and demand that something gets done about it, but usually doesn't have a studio party, music group to discuss issues regularly for 50 years and Chair the party intellectual property. Usually what we talk about when it comes to music related issues is things like the copyright directive and framework issues to do with IP. You know how things come together in various EU directives. That's part of history. But and obviously issues like the monetisation streaming services and digitisation and music, which happened about 15 years ago, and some of the huge issues that went around all that. But I've never known a period like this, and it's not a comfortable place for governments to be, you know, like you would want to be the secretary state for DCMS. So the prime minister, you know, having to take calls from senior musicians and being in conflict with the music industry. And it would strike me that they would be doing practically everything to get themselves off this particular who can. That's I think it surprises me that they're not making any great efforts to do that. And I think we'll have to. I think that's something we'll have to come up. And I like Ian's samey solution. I would call it Ian. And I think there's one that I'd like to talk to you further about that in advance on Monday, because I think that has long as that has to be proposed. I would suspect and suggest it may run up against the obsession with the movement, which seems to be the driver of all this and all the difficulties that we have. And I think there will be particular problems with them. Some of the points that you find in the rest of the points based system and there may be issues around know that I'm interested, but I think it's a valuable thing to present and promote, particularly when we're looking at what's coming in next year. And that does provide another opportunity for the state to have a look at the questions I have. And I've not been a not for 20 odd years, though, and so I'm interested in the impact of all this. But it's not just this, not just the tuning visas issue that concerns me. It's that the whole package of Brexit, the freedom of movement, leaving the single market that this has, because there's other things, there's things like national insurance has to be negotiated with up to twenty seven countries. It's just to the income tax. The cost have accountants and. Again, when I was touring, it was like I said, some things make a break to, you know, how all that is going to be impacted. And I'm just interested to see your views about, you know, we've had quite a lot about the many days that you could stand in various countries. This is something still confuses me. I'm not entirely sure just what the arrangements are for how many days a band into Europe proceeds going to up. So he'll help me out with that one. I mean, we sort of understand the 90 days which is kicking around, but I know there's different parts of the country. Just just seems like I was I was a member of balance of action and I was preparing my next to assembled to create a semblance of a chance for all your logistics. And you were looking to tour through Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, Italy, Spain. How how is the Gushin about spending time in these countries? How I was organised? Would you have to speak about doing that? And I'm looking particularly to to Ian to help me with that one, because I know I've got my head that.

Ian Smith [00:07:00] So it's actually quite straightforward, but it's making everyone confused. The situation is we all have 90 days in any 180 days just to go within that allowance. You can work in a particular EU country according to their regulations. So if you want to go and spend your whole 90 days that you can work in one hundred and eighty. Sorry. The problem is each of the countries have usually how many days in a year. So Germany is 90 days in any one year permit free, so is France, the Netherlands is six weeks in only 13, but that all comes out of your allowance of your 90 days and 180. So if you spend 10 days in Netherlands, three days in Germany, seven days in France, it's 20 days. So that's out of your, what, 90 out of 180. So there are two levels to it. There's your top level in terms of how long you can be there without a visa. We don't need visas at all in Changan, but each one of those days that you spend working in any of the other 27 is taken off that 19 out of 180. But there's something else I've got to tell you. I found last night when I was I've become an ultra EU nerd through all this, which is driven me mad. It's not normal. I trust me. I'd rather be working with this guy. So the deal is any state that has done a Changan deal. So, for example, America or Canada or whatever, if that predated the arrangements for Changan, that they can spend 90 days in any of each of the 27 states so they can do 90 days in Germany, 90 days in France, 90 days, whatever. So that's the difference between the two. You have 90 days and 180 as a UK citizen and you can spend an amount of that time working. But each time you work in a different state, you have a different allowance in that state.

Pete Wishart MP [00:09:15] When I think I understand that, thanks, you know, valiant effort, an attempt to try to describe what is a really complex issue, but I think I'm closer to understand. And if I was like a tour manager looking, you know, like assembling together to be a nightmare just to try and get round exactly how you deal with it, I'm interested in what may be one of the other American or Sture, like when you are assembling your crew just to put what we're talking about, the size of crews, because I think one operator roughly the level that sure. As the new Mogwai when you're touring is maybe just a little bit bigger when they're assembling there, the crews and the to the Naprosyn infrastructure. What is it you take, though, when you're going on to just give us a sense of, you know, what the crew involves? Sometimes just the need for accountants know what to do with caterers, you know, maybe two or three truck drivers to COP couple of trucks. Could you just give give us a sense of what you need to assemble and what the impact of this is going to have on the size of your crew and possible cutbacks you're going to have to make in order to try and make this profitable. And maybe you could help us with that one.

Emma Pollock [00:10:34] Yeah, sure. Listen, I'm going to answer this in two years, actually, because I've I've kind of lived the life has been in a band which was together from 95 to 2005. And we were we we toured extensively around the world and we toured repeatedly in Europe, North America, and and we went to Australia and Japan and at times as well. And and so the experience was, you know, you've got crew, you've got you've got to manager, you've got to bus, basically.

[00:11:08] A range you take your gear over to to Europe on the ferry. You've got Qatar takes you the stage manager. You've basically got you've got a crew and you've got the tour manager to answer all of those tricky questions that Ian has just basically gone through, which would basically be required now. And the New World Steve Brine. But you see, my situation for the past 10 years has been as a solo artist and my situation has completely changed. I now go to Europe completely alone with maybe one or two other musicians. And so every single administrative and practical challenge has to be made by me as an individual musician. Now, that's OK, because I'm up for the challenge and because I've been in the music industry for 25 years, I'm more than well versed in how to go find the solution to a problem. But the trouble is that with a younger artist who doesn't maybe have the confidence, have the wherewithal, have the money, have the food for the support to be a tour manager, that this could basically be enough to just to be the disincentive for them not to do at all. And that that really is the worry.

Pete Wishart MP [00:12:15] And. I think you made the point, which is a very, very good point, that you could become your best pals. You know, when you're spending months together, you know, you're sharing a fantastic experience. Been touring Europe is just amazing. It's great fun. It's not just, you know, like something that we all like to do as musicians, but there's a huge cultural impact and an environment to the whole thing. Could you give us a sense just about, you know, what the crew would be composed of and would this necessity any cutbacks, the people that you would take out with you?

Stuart Murdoch [00:12:48] Well, we're not we're not as fancy. We don't take care. Caterers, you know, we just we just on the road. But we do we put everything into the show. All the money goes in in the show. And it's not just that there are piles. We are constantly working on the show as as we go where we're creating the show. You know, we with the video stuff that we do where we're editing and, you know, our guys are doing that and making the show better all the time. So we have a tour manager, production manager, a three back cleaning crew. We also take what we used to session musicians as well. But that becomes more difficult, will probably have to get our session musicians in Europe know rather than them touring with us, but. But we do we take to you know, there's seven seven in the band plus plus the crews were on two buses, were on two sleeper buses. That's the most economic way to do it, really, everybody. It's also the safest way. That means that nobody gets lost. Everybody's everybody's on the bus.

[00:13:57] I think I remember one famous episode with a special tour bus involving one of your members of the band was the last thing you would think it was safe.

[00:14:05] And then we left we left the drummer in North Dakota that one time in a Walmart. That's probably the thing will be best remembered for. But yeah, everybody everybody's on the bus. And that's also it's you know, we're trying to make we're trying to make this thing green as well. We're trying to make it as green as possible. So, you know, the bus is probably the best way to do it. That's for tourists for for the in the summertime, we're in and out of Europe maybe six or seven times during the summer. And that's a lot of that's flying in and flying out for four festivals. And we strip things back for that.

[00:14:41] And what about the solo artist? Is this going to have an impact? Obviously, I'm thinking the jazz ensembles. I mean, you travel light any way.

Ian Smith [00:14:51] I mean, as is all this going to have an effect, an impact on how you're touring? Arrangements are going to be assembled? Well. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Actually asleep. So sorry.

Emma Pollock [00:15:07] OK, well, no, listen, just quickly, what I was basically going to say was that quite often you will, you know, you will, you will you will go and play shows at our house in order to invest in the possibility of being invited back to Europe for four bigger festivals, because they they are the things that really can be an awful lot more money. And as a solo artist, it's it's it's it's far more work to now take on and with or without that support of being in a band and having all of those tasks shared across a number of personnel, it just becomes so, so difficult. A lot of artists are solo these days, not because they choose to, but because the economics of the current situation forces it to be the case. This is just another barrier.

[00:16:03] Anybody else?

Yousef [00:16:04] So you said you're going to come in, all of this was going to like, again, my concerns about people of mid-level and below, just for them to be able to kind of break through it like it's been mentioned about having less experience and less resilience to to kind of deal with all these kind of on the road eventualities. Now, obviously, people at my level have like managers and agents and stuff like that, and they can be kind of circumnavigates some of us possibly. But then when you're trying to break through the economics of it simply once TikTok, it's going to be really difficult. And especially, like I say, if you have a couple of gigs, entry level over the weekend, then you have to kind of go through all this these hurdles just to kind of get your foot on the ladder. That's going to kind of almost evaporates the next generation potentially.

Ian Smith [00:16:57] And I'm just wondering what we establish after subjunctive, but you all are foreign agents and superpowers and all you're European, we never know. We all have to assemble all the different agents who you work with for different territories and in Europe. What are they saying about all this? No more nervous, anxious about promoting U.K. up to snuff when you see this.

Catherine McKinnell MP [00:17:27] So I think we're going to come in on my previous one. And then I think Ian wants to come in on the Asian side.

[00:17:35] Rocki kind of ties in. Actually, I think we've become far less attractive to be looked to people.

Rakhi Singh [00:17:41] You know, if it's if it's a toss up between booking someone up coming from the region, which is easy to navigate or booking a UK where there's extra paperwork, I think the choice will always go to the the less paperwork. And so we become far less attractive actually for promoters. It's more work for them, not just more work for us.

[00:18:05] And sorry. It's quite hard to keep an eye on all these things.

Emma Pollock [00:18:09] Oh, yeah, yeah, sorry. I mean, yeah, I mean, it was when I wanted to come in Sarajevo.

Anna Patalong [00:18:14] So I know I was I mean, I was just going to say, I mean, for us, I mean, they're they're promotors contractors and agents. I mean, I know agents have been working round the clock since the beginning of the year to actually not not just sort out what's what's happening going forward, but we have contracts in the diary spreading for the next three years and trying to retrospectively sort those out, get visas for them. I mean, these contracts are worth hundreds of thousands of pounds and there is no certainty that they can actually go ahead at the minute. And despite the pandemic, I mean, once the pandemic, hopefully we're all through that. There's no certainty that the any of these contracts will actually will actually happen now. And as Ricky said, the in terms of being booked abroad, there are so many avenues that possibly now closing to us. We don't have the ability to actually go and promote ourselves over that. We become far less inviting where all of this paperwork and money attached to all of that paperwork is far easier in an oversaturated industry to book somebody that is there. Is is there on the doorstep also for for my line of work? We have to we have to travel all the time for auditions. And and that, again, would eat into us 90 days free time, which would leave any paid work if if we can actually use that paid work in what remains of the 90 days, it's a lot less time of it. I mean, you can spend weeks out of a year auditioning abroad from from various different countries.

Ian Smith [00:20:04] Grateful. Thank for that. And, you know, it's going to come up again.

Catherine McKinnell MP [00:20:08] It was going to come in on the page in question.

Ian Smith [00:20:10] I actually just to put this in context, the last 12 years of I've been working 20 years as an agent and store manager, musician, occasionally I've been dual based in UK and Vienna in Austria. And I've also been in touch with I've got a big network of friends. I'm an agent, maidenly manager, occasionally producer. I'm also in touch with most of the EU 27 music export offices because I've done presentations on this for the last nine months or so. And insane. The problem is this. It's about not only ease of making sure the artist can come in and being sure that they can because of the work permit situation. We had uncertainty 18 months ago, two years ago. So the promoters I was speaking to in the agents are speaking to us saying, well, what's going to happen after Brexit? How can I book this show more for the classical world and other aspects of the world which are long, longer term in terms of bookings. So a year, 18 months. But then we've got a situation now where they're aware of the problems with work permits, et cetera. OK, we can maybe get around that. They're also the problem of Carna, which you've mentioned. But that increase has cost the local promoter because we're being asked to booking back line instead of or even instruments. So a UK based band with a UK based citizens in it to avoid having to bring extra equipment. I know musicians don't always want to use another instrument, but sometimes they will. Then we talk to the promoter and we say rice thousand euros or two to whatever we need. Parkrun. OK, drums, bass guitar, lead guitar. Yeah, fine. Oh, by the way, we also need two guitars and a keyboard. Well they normally bring them. Yeah, well it's cheaper now for us not to have to bring them. And so ironically, if we can get the promoters to even book the show, which is more difficult, there's extra costs there and the revenue that's being made is going to the local back line companies in Europe. So that's the difficulty and that's happening all around. And I'm an agent working both from UK and in the European Union at the moment. But I've got friends throughout the UK where agents, agents work their arses off. And what people tend to forget is agents only get paid commission, usually for every 20 phone calls. You might get one that works. So in terms of that, across Europe now, it's more difficult, not so much about the uncertainty. It's about cost as well. So it's depressing the market for UK musicians.

Catherine McKinnell MP [00:22:58] So we've got them. We've got about seven minutes left. And I just wanted to prepare you all for. Really, your final comments in terms of if we haven't already covered something that you think is absolutely crucial that employees need to know before this debate on Monday and that you want to put on the record on this issue and get that into your final comment. And the other thing I was going to just see if you had any reflections on, because we've had an awful lot about how this impacts you as artists and the industry more generally. But I think one of the things that perhaps the public are alive to yet is how it might impact them in terms of how vibrant our artist and cultural and music scene should be and will be diminished and whether we will have less access to seeing artists, whether we'll end up paying more to see artists. It would just be helpful to get any insights that you might have had in terms of thinking that through and where this could go if it's not put right. And so I guess we'll just go to each of you just for one one one minute. Final comments and any thoughts you might have on that?

Rakhi Singh [00:24:21] Yeah, we haven't really spoken about collaboration within this, and so much amazing work is is done through collaboration when different cultures meet and create something new together. So I think that will usually limit new creations and new connexions that potentially would be made as well.

Catherine McKinnell MP [00:24:42] Yeah, Ian agrees with you and he would like to go next.

Ian Smith [00:24:50] Yeah, out of Miami. Yes, I mean, he said, OK, I'm going to say, is all this in one minute? Totally what I was going to say, Ricky, it's going to not only diminish our ability to enjoy music from our own country and creative arts from the UK, but also collaborations. We've got to remember, we're all a huge creative community around the world, creatives like no other group in terms of being able to work together through music or visual arts or whatever is very, very easy in some ways. And this is causing a problem that is making that far more difficult. The general public will not have as big an access to breaking artists and young artists from the EU because they can't afford to come in and vice versa in the EU. But they are the only other thing I would like to say on that. So audiences will become more disenchanted because they can't see the people who want to see the ticket pricing affect very much, because frankly, the industry will work, in particular the music industry, the business side of it, and the back end of the music industry will find ways around that in terms of what they make financially. What I would say is a big issue, which is not really being touched upon very much, and it will affect everything is sabotage. It's a big issue generally for touring. And in fact, I was talking to the IMU a few days ago. Apparently the tonnage which is currently three point five tonnes, is dropping to two point five tonnes soon. So that will mean that all vehicles under 2.5 tonnes will come under the capital rules, which means we won't be able to get round. So I think that's really, really important, but obviously not for now. And thank you very much. Everybody appreciates that being part of this.

Catherine McKinnell MP [00:26:38] Thank you. And I know you wanted to come in before. So do you want to go home? And I've got some final thoughts for us.

Emma Pollock [00:26:45] Yes, sure. I mean, basically, the whole of the arts industry in the UK, I think is actually in the balance here. We actually need to look at the future of record sales, the music industry, awareness of UK acts, new and existing legacy. All of this depends on access to to the life gig experience, and that starts here and then extends to Europe and further afield. But we really do need to preserve this.

[00:27:17] And.

Anna Patalong [00:27:19] Yeah, I just wanted to say, I mean, obviously, this isn't about pro EU anti you feeling anymore. This is about the government's commitment to champion UK industries. The creative industries bring in a hundred and eleven billion pounds a year. And and it's, as I said, the easiest trade deal you could possibly do. We just we just need the channels, the right channels, and and we will do the rest of the work for you, as we have been doing for for for generations previously. In terms of how the wider public can understand this, we bring in so much tax revenue from our EU gigs. If if we're not able to continue doing that, the whole UK economy is going to suffer massively. The creative industries are far, far bigger. Not that there's a competition, but we bring in far more than fishing. So I think we deserve to be spoken about at a similar extent.

Yousef [00:28:26] I really am that and absolutely, you know, I think largely by some factors of the government were just not taken seriously, unbelievably, with the children playing them and the total agreement occasionally to come out. And it's not the case at all. It's a very serious business. But by really kind of hard work and enthusiastic music enthusiasts, entrepreneurial people and people that don't have any support under normal circumstances, we just can't get on with it, make it happen and fend for ourselves. And like I said earlier on in the discussion, this is actually no time to be putting any more restrictions in place at all. If anything, we should just wipe them out for the interim while we try to get back on our feet and discuss it later on.

Anna Patalong [00:29:19] I mean, as you said, the performing arts industries have been the worst affected by the pandemic. And and we are really going to need some support and we don't need any more problems in getting going. We need we need the support and and the concern of government to actually allow this thriving U.K. industry to thrive again.

Stuart Murdoch [00:29:42] And, Stuart, yeah, it's it's such a good thing to be good at as a country. I mean, it's such a joyful thing. You know, why would I mean, nobody voted for this. I just wish we could sort it out. It would be like a turkey voting for Christmas, you know? So please, let's get it done.

Tim Brennan [00:30:00] And final word to our petitioner who brought us all here today, sir, I'm just saying, you know, before Brexit we would have half of the UK music scene where a key entry point really for musicians from the US and other major music markets. You know, if we're not allowed to continue working freely in the EU, you know that this hub and the entry point is going to be lost forever. And inevitably, I think, you know, the UK economy will suffer. I think we've suffered culturally and I think our influence in the music markets will will will be lost as well.

Catherine McKinnell MP [00:30:43] Well, thank you. That's all we have time for today. And I know there is cross-party support on the need to find a solution to this issue. And your contributions today have been really, really valuable in adding strength, weight and focus to to those discussions. And I guess from a personal perspective, I just want to say thank you for taking the time to do this. And I know that, you know, it's of huge interest to you to get this right. But, you know, as a member of the public, I'm not a touring artist, Pete, but I you know, I'm an avid follower of music, art, culture, all of it. I miss it this year as much as anybody else and can't wait for all that pent up opportunity to go and see, you know, the bands that we love and hear the music live that we that we like to see happen. And I think probably the vast majority of the British public are in the same place. And I think if if there was a level of awareness about what this could potentially mean, which you've expressed so powerfully today, I think we have to find a solution. There's no doubt about it. So the next stage is that we will discuss this in a E session on Monday. We will put all these. And there are many members who have been really big members of parliament that have a really keen interest in seeing a solution to this. So we will put the case to the government and we will hopefully hear a response from the government that gives hope on Monday. But if not, we will keep working on it until we do find a solution to the challenges to ensure that we do have that thriving cultural music and art scene that we all we all appreciate and love. So thank you so much for taking your time. And and I just wish you all the best for the future as well.