Asked by
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had
with the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish Governments to
coordinate a United Kingdom-wide approach to relaxing the
restrictions in place to address the COVID-19 pandemic.
The Minister of State, Cabinet Office () (Con) [V]
My Lords, the UK Government have worked closely with the devolved
Administrations throughout this crisis. There have been
discussions between Ministers and officials, and this engagement
will continue. [Inaudible.] Citizens in Scotland, Wales and
Northern Ireland should follow the equivalent guidelines issued
by their respective Administrations.
(Lab)
My Lords, the diversity of decision-making between the four
nations of the UK, in particular regarding health, is an integral
part of the devolution settlement and is to be welcomed, not
criticised. However, the diversity in communicating public
information has been woeful at times during the 12 weeks of this
lockdown. To the best of my knowledge, there have been no joint
simultaneous statements by the Prime Minister and the three First
Ministers, and no joint simultaneous parliamentary or Written
Statements by the Health or Business Ministers during this whole
period. Will the Minister, on behalf of the Government, give a
commitment to try to do better than this as we move out of
lockdown and try to avoid a resurgence of the virus next winter?
Can we ensure that, even where there are differences, we
communicate with clarity why they exist, and ensure that each
part of this United Kingdom knows exactly what the rules and
regulations are in its area?
[V]
My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point. [Inaudible.]
The Lord Speaker ()
I am sorry to interrupt but the reception is so bad on this
Question that I ask the House to adjourn briefly, for five
minutes, so that we can get the difficulties sorted out.
11.41 am
Sitting suspended.
11.53 am
The Lord Speaker
My Lords, in view of the circumstances, we will start again with
the Question in the name of the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, and
go on from there.
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on
the Order Paper.
[V]
My Lords, with apologies to the House, I will repeat the Answer I
gave earlier. The United Kingdom Government have worked closely
with the devolved Administrations throughout the crisis. There
have been frequent discussions between Ministers and officials.
This engagement will continue. As we set out in our road map to
recovery, the virus may be spreading at different speeds across
the United Kingdom, and measures may need to change in different
ways and at different times. Citizens in Scotland, Wales and
Northern Ireland should follow the equivalent guidance issued by
their respective Administrations.
My Lords, the divergence of decision-making during this lockdown
period is something to celebrate, not criticise. It is an
integral part of the devolution settlement and has made for
better decision-making for each individual health service and
other aspects of government in the four nations. However, at
times, the public communication of those decisions has been
woeful. The lack of co-ordination between the public
announcements of the four Health Ministers and the four Business
Ministers—and even between the Prime Minister and the three First
Ministers—has created confusion and, occasionally, distress in
the four nations. I urge the Minister to give a commitment on
behalf of the Government to seek to improve this co-ordination of
public information, communication and explanation as we emerge
from lockdown and try to avoid a second spike or a resurgence of
the virus in the winter.
[V]
My Lords, I understand the point that the noble Lord makes. He is
right that there is a devolution settlement and that these
matters are devolved. Clear communication to citizens has been a
priority throughout the crisis. We have tried to make clear, and
have made clear, which measures apply to citizens in each of
England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, including through
making this explicit in UK Government guidance.
(Non-Afl)
My Lords, many families are spread across the United Kingdom.
Does the Minister agree that, when it comes to the opportunity
for families to reunite in person, the more integrated the
approach across the United Kingdom, the fairer and better it will
be for everyone?
[V]
My Lords, I think that the noble Lord strikes a chord with every
citizen in this country when he speaks of the importance of
family and the sacrifices that families have had to make. We are
seeking to confront the virus as one United Kingdom. I welcome
the fact that, in different places, it is now easier for family
members to reunite than it was at the start of the lockdown. But
I take the noble Lord’s point. We will always seek to proceed out
of this crisis as a United Kingdom.
(Con) [V]
My Lords, the co-ordination between certain departments of Her
Majesty’s Government and the devolved Governments of the UK has
been a little confusing. Aviation is an example of a reserved
matter. However, two weeks ago, the Secretary of State for
Transport announced that general aviation could happen again
because it was determined that the risk of contributing to
increased infection was minimal. As a reserved matter, it follows
that the DfT has a UK-wide responsibility for GA, yet only last
week, pilots in Scotland were permitted to take to the skies
while those in Wales and Northern Ireland are still waiting for
the go-ahead. What discussions, if any, are taking place between
the Government and the devolved Administrations about achieving a
consistent UK-wide approach to general aviation?
[V]
My Lords, I fear that I am not a specialist in aviation matters,
but I will write to the noble Lord on this important topic.
(CB) [V]
My Lords, at present, who in government is responsible for
co-ordinating contact with the devolved nations? Lately, on at
least one occasion, one of the devolved Administrations learned
of a policy decision by central government involving public
health issues from the media. Is that acceptable?
[V]
My Lords, good communication should always be striven for. That
is the Government’s objective. At the outset of the crisis, the
United Kingdom Government established a Cabinet committee
structure to deal with the health, economic, public sector and
international impacts of Covid-19 on behalf of the whole of the
UK. Ministers from the devolved Administrations have regularly
been invited to participate in these discussions. We are
certainly committed to ensuring that the Administrations are
informed and involved at every stage.
(Lab) [V]
My Lords, further to the Minister’s reply, can he now tell the
House why the Secretary of State did not inform, let alone
consult, the First Minister of Wales—as a matter of courtesy, let
alone practicality—that he was planning to make face masks
mandatory on public transport? The First Minister has put it this
way:
“We’re going to have to … find out from them the extent to which
they have got answers to these questions, in advance of making
the decision, or whether it’s a matter of making the headline,
and then worrying about the detail afterwards.”
[V]
My Lords, I note what the noble Baroness says, but Welsh
government officials and Ministers have been involved in COBRA
meetings, committees and dozens of other meetings with UK
government Ministers and officials since the pandemic began. This
will continue to be a key part of the planning and communication
of the overall response. We strive to do the best at all times.
If there are failures, they are to be regretted, but we should go
forward together as a United Kingdom.
(LD) [V]
My Lords, a recent Welsh political barometer poll showed that by
a margin of four to one the Welsh public strongly prefer the
Welsh Government’s approach to easing the lockdown. Does the
Minister not agree that this pandemic has shown the ability of
the devolved Administrations not only to work differently but to
achieve better outcomes in response to the needs of their
citizens?
[V]
My Lords, the purpose of the devolution settlement is to enable
the devolved Administrations to respond as they believe right to
local needs. I repeat that I believe that there is a high level
of co-ordination, co-operation and understanding between all
authorities involved in fighting this crisis.
(Con) [V]
My Lords, in recognising the need to co-ordinate between the
Government and the devolved Administrations, does my noble friend
recognise that the requirement for two-metre social distancing
above all else is preventing us reopening our economy? Can my
noble friend tell the House what research the Government have
that leads them to a different conclusion from the World Health
Organization and most European Governments, which recommend one
or 1.5-metre social distancing? What steps are the Government
taking to reduce this from two metres, and when?
[V]
My Lords, the Government are guided by science at all stages of
the crisis; the advice we have given has been on that basis. The
advice is constantly under review by SAGE, but I can give no
guarantees as to when or whether any change will be announced.
(CB)
My Lords, the Secretary of State for Health has assured us that
all care home workers and patients will be tested. Can the
Minister confirm that this has taken place throughout the United
Kingdom? Is he aware that in Scotland, sadly, coronavirus deaths
have now overtaken hospital deaths, with 46% of deaths in
Scotland in care homes versus 29% in England and Wales? Surely
the Minister agrees that testing patients and care workers in
care homes throughout the whole of the UK should be an immediate
priority for the Government.
[V]
My Lords, I cannot add to what my right honourable friend the
Secretary of State for Health said, but I can underline one’s
concern for every resident of care homes. As my right honourable
friend said, that testing is available. He announced yesterday
evening that the testing will be extended to a wider range of
care homes, not only those for the elderly.
(Lab) [V]
Following on from my noble friend Lady Andrews’s question, the
Minister might take on board that there are some definite
communication difficulties from the centre to Wales. What
specifically will the Government do to ensure that people living
on the long border between England and Wales understand and abide
by the different lockdown rules?
[V]
My Lords, regardless of where a person lives, if they are in
Wales, they are subject to Welsh rules, and vice versa if they
are in England. That is a clear position and one that I
reiterate.
