Covid-19: Discussions with Scottish Government
(Ayr, Carrick
and Cumnock) (SNP)
What recent discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on
the covid-19 outbreak. [902836]
(Dundee West) (SNP)
What recent discussions he has had with the Scottish Government
on the covid-19 outbreak. [902837]
The Secretary of State for Scotland ( )
I regularly attend cross-Government meetings, which include the
devolved Administrations, to discuss how to minimise the impact
of covid-19. There is a high level of co-operation between all
Administrations and there will continue to be. We are committed
to a UK-wide approach, as we have been from the start.
[V]
What justification does the Secretary of State have for ignoring
the Scottish Government guidelines to stay home, protect the NHS
and save lives, by undertaking an almost 700-mile round trip to
Westminster when he could safely have worked from home today
virtually? What kind of message does that send to the Scottish
people? Will the Secretary of State be self-isolating on his
return to his constituency?
Mr Jack
To be absolutely clear, first, as the hon. Gentleman’s colleague,
the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (), has made clear, Members of
Parliament are key workers. More importantly, as a Cabinet
Minister and a Secretary of State, it is right that I should be
here in the Chamber so that I can be properly scrutinised and
answer these questions. I came down at the weekend and travelled
on a train very safely. I will return safely and I will be
isolating myself when I do, but that is solely because I go back
to family. I do not see why we cannot have proper scrutiny of
Parliament when we have the virtual proceedings, which work for
some, but for me it is absolutely about being here, being
scrutinised and being at the Dispatch Box. At last week’s
Scottish Affairs Committee sitting, the Secretary of State made
the welcome admission that the Prime Minister’s announcement on
exiting lockdown did cause confusion, given that the advice
applied only to England. The crystal-clear message in Scotland
remains to stay at home, protect the NHS and save lives. In that
same spirit, will the Secretary of State accept that prematurely
ending the modern ways in which we are currently working in
Parliament would disregard Scotland’s clear public health
guidance, increase infection in our communities and put our
constituents at risk by forcing people to travel hundreds of
miles back and forth to London?
Mr Jack
I have already given the answer on the first point. On the
messaging, the messaging in Scotland is different to that in
England, which is fine, but the “stay alert” message in England
is that people should stay at home and work from home if they can
work from home, but if they cannot, they can go to work. That is
very clear. In going to work, they stay alert, wash their hands
and socially distance themselves—they do all those things. If
Scottish Members of Parliament do not want to come back to be
scrutinised or to scrutinise Ministers, that will be a matter for
them, but at some point we will have to move to a stage where
Parliament is operating on a virtual and covid-safe basis, and
that is exactly as it should be.
Mr Speaker
I welcome the shadow Secretary of State for the first of his two
questions from the Front Bench.
(Edinburgh South) (Lab)
That is very kind of you, Mr Speaker; thank you very much indeed.
The Secretary of State will be aware of the February outbreak of
covid-19 at an international Nike conference in central
Edinburgh. In a catastrophic error of judgment, the Scottish
Government decided that the Scottish public would not be
informed, despite that being contrary to Scottish public health
legislation. The public could have helped with the tracing and
used their own common sense, as the Prime Minister has said, to
make choices about attending large events and gatherings. A BBC
documentary reported that a lockdown then could have saved 2,000
Scottish lives. Will the Secretary of State tell the House
whether the UK Government were informed; why the public were not
told, given the subsequent disinfecting and closure of Nike
outlets all over the UK; and how many UK lives could have been
saved as a result?
Mr Jack
I welcome the hon. Gentleman back to his rightful place on the
Opposition Front Bench. I fear he spent far too long in the
wilderness that was the previous regime’s Back Benches. That
said, I must pay tribute to his predecessor, the hon. Member for
Rochdale (), who I am pleased is making
good progress in recovering from a very nasty bout of
coronavirus.
On the shadow Secretary of State’s question, I believe that
maximum transparency is important when it comes to matters of
public health, because it is important that we treat the public
as adults. To that end, I wish to make it clear that the Scottish
Government informed Public Health England—an agency, as Members
know—of one case of covid-19 on 2 March and two further cases on
4 March. I should also make it absolutely clear at the Dispatch
Box that the chief medical officers of the four nations agreed,
before there were any confirmed cases, that each Administration
would announce their own cases and take their own decisions about
what was appropriate to release and when they released it, so it
is a matter for the Scottish Government and how they handled it.
I accept that response from the Secretary of State, but the UK
Government did have a responsibility, given that Nike outlets
across the United Kingdom were closed and disinfected.
I thank the Secretary of State for his welcome and for what he
said about my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (), whom I spoke to shortly after
being appointed; he is back and fit, with his old sense of
humour—he has not lost that, thankfully. My hon. Friend the
Member for Ogmore () and I will work closely with
the Government when they agree with us, but we will be a
ferocious Opposition when we disagree. We should work
collaboratively when we agree, but we will be ferocious when we
do not.
In advance of a vaccine, the only way to ease lockdown measures
is to test, trace, track and isolate. The key to that process is
mass testing. Given that the UK Government consistently fail to
hit their 100,000 a day target, and Scotland has one of the worst
testing rates in the whole world, we need mobilisation of both
Governments to have testing centres everywhere—mobile, workplace,
home testing, in airports and so on—to make this strategy work. A
“go it alone” policy, encouraged by the Prime Minister’s clumsy
announcements, is counterproductive. What work is going on across
both Governments to ensure not only that the capacity of testing
is exponentially increased, but that there is a system in place
for effectively testing and retesting the majority of the
population, starting in our care homes?
Mr Jack
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. The testing capacity in
Scotland is 12,000 tests a day. On Monday, they only used 4,559
of those. That is a matter for the Scottish Government, because
health is devolved, and they determine what tests are undertaken.
I want to make it clear that the UK Government have funded for
the Scottish Government five operating drive-through test centres
in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Inverness and Perth. The
Ministry of Defence is operating 30 pop-up units across Scotland.
Again, they can go at the behest of the Scottish Government.
There is plenty of capacity there. It is not being used. It
should have been used more in care homes; I agree with him on
that. There is a firm line between the Scottish Government being
cautious and being slow, when in fact, they could be less
cautious about easing the lockdown if they had been a lot quicker
on testing.
(Paisley and Renfrewshire
South) (SNP) [V]
I welcome the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for
Edinburgh South (), to his position. Given that
England has decided to ease lockdown measures earlier than the
other three nations of the UK, can the Secretary of State give
assurances that the citizens of the devolved nations will still
have access to the UK furlough scheme for as long as lockdown
must continue in the devolved nations?
Mr Jack
This is the first time that the hon. Lady and I have met, in
virtual circumstances, and I welcome her to her role. The answer
is one for the Chancellor. That is a matter for the Treasury.
If this Parliament insists on following a policy of England’s way
or no way and does not leave any leeway for the devolved nations,
will the Secretary of State, as Scotland’s representative in
Government, lobby the Prime Minister for the devolution of the
fiscal powers necessary for the Scottish Government to implement
their own furlough scheme?
Mr Jack
This is not the time for the Scottish fiscal framework to be
opened up and looked at again. The UK Government have given huge
support to the whole United Kingdom through the furlough scheme,
the self-employed scheme, the bounce-back loans and the
coronavirus business interruption loan scheme. There has been a
huge package of measures to keep money in people’s pockets and to
keep the economy as strong as it can be when we return to
something near normal. Have I argued Scotland’s case? Yes, I
have. We have an extension coming on 1 August, running to 31
October. I hope that we can get people back to work over that
period and get the economy up and running, to save people’s
livelihoods. While we are very focused on saving people’s lives,
we must remember that after that comes saving their livelihoods.
(Perth and North Perthshire)
(SNP) [V]
It is so disappointing to see the Secretary of State and his
“better together” shadow in the House of Commons in London today.
Their Government are telling them to stay at home and not to
travel unnecessarily, but there they are in the House of Commons
today. The Secretary of State is right that virtual proceedings
allow Scottish Members of Parliament to work from home, so why
are the Government pulling the plug on the virtual proceedings
today? He is the voice of Scots in the Cabinet. What is he doing
to ensure that Scots’ voices continue to be heard in the House of
Commons on behalf of our constituents and to allow us to do our
work?
Mr Jack
The hon. Gentleman might be jumping the gun on that, because
discussions are ongoing between the Whips Office and the House
authorities. I want to make it clear to him that we are not going
to put anyone at risk. However, we have to recognise that if we
are asking schools to go back and the public to go back to work,
we should lead by example, and we should return to a covid-safe—I
emphasise that: covid-safe—working environment.
Covid-19: UK-wide Response
(Rother Valley)
(Con)
What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on
co-ordinating a UK-wide response to the covid-19 outbreak.
[902844]
(Carlisle) (Con)
What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on
co-ordinating a UK-wide response to the covid-19 outbreak.
[902846]
(Calder Valley) (Con)
What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on
co-ordinating a UK-wide response to the covid-19 outbreak.
[902847]
(Vale of Clwyd) (Con)
. What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on
co-ordinating a UK-wide response to the covid-19 outbreak.
[902848]
The Secretary of State for Scotland ( )
I have regular discussions with all my Cabinet colleagues on the
covid-19 outbreak, including on the co-ordination of a UK-wide
response. The Government are absolutely committed to a UK-wide
approach and we will continue to work together with the devolved
Administrations to ensure a co-ordinated approach across the UK,
while respecting the devolution settlements.
[V]
Because of the actions taken by this UK Government, the Scottish
Government will receive more than £3.7 billion in extra Barnett
funding to help deal with the covid-19 outbreak. Does my right
hon. Friend believe that this demonstrates the importance of
tackling the pandemic as one United Kingdom, and that it is in
the best interests of all four nations to work together as we
emerge from this crisis?
Mr Jack
As my hon. Friend correctly points out, Scotland has been
allocated a total of £3.7 billion in extra funding so far, and,
yes, I agree with him on the one United Kingdom approach.
[V]
In places such as Carlisle and south Scotland, we have a
substantial amount of cross-border activity, including travel to
work. Does the Minister agree that it would be far better to have
a UK-wide policy on movement rather than having the Scottish
Government causing unnecessary confusion, which does not help
people in this part of the country?
Mr Jack
Yes, absolutely.
[V]
As we know, different parts of the United Kingdom are
experiencing this pandemic at different rates, so it is right to
be flexible and to move at different speeds, as we have seen. But
will my right hon. Friend confirm that he remains fully committed
to working constructively with the Scottish Government, so that
we can, as he says, get through this crisis together as one
United Kingdom?
Mr Jack
I can confirm to my hon. Friend that we are absolutely committed
to working constructively with the Scottish Government on all
fronts.
[V]
Does the Secretary of State agree with Adam Marshall, director
general of the British Chambers of Commerce, has said:
“We need to see the whole of the UK moving together—the
alternative for business is additional confusion and cost.
Avoiding divergence for the sake of politics is important.”
Does the Secretary of State agree?
Mr Speaker
I do not know if the Secretary of State could hear that—if not,
we will move on.
Mr Jack
I think my hon. Friend said, “avoiding divergence for the sake of
politics”, or something, towards the end. If that is indeed what
he said, I completely agree with him.
Covid-19: Strengthening the Four-nation
Approach
(Wirral South) (Lab)
What recent discussions he has had with the Minister for the
Cabinet Office on strengthening the four-nation approach to the
covid-19 outbreak. [902834]
(Easington) (Lab)
What recent discussions he has had with the Minister for the
Cabinet Office on strengthening the four-nation approach to the
covid-19 outbreak. [902835]
(Birmingham, Selly Oak)
(Lab)
What recent discussions he has had with the Minister for the
Cabinet Office on strengthening the four-nation approach to the
covid-19 outbreak. [902857]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland
()
I have regular discussions with the Minister for the Cabinet
Office and the Scotland Office is in regular dialogue with
Scottish Government Minsters to ensure that the most effective
measures are put in place in all parts of the United Kingdom.
Throughout the covid-19 outbreak, we have been committed to a
four-nations approach.
[V]
From the Secretary of State’s comments earlier, we know that the
Government accept that coronavirus will affect different places
differently. What discussions has the Minister been having with
other Ministers about getting an official, sub-regional
transmission rate—a sub-regional R rate—for the whole United
Kingdom to enable authorities in different parts of the country
to respond in the way that helps them locally?
There have been ongoing discussions about this. As the Secretary
of State said—indeed, the Prime Minister included it in the UK
Government document—not only will different nations of the United
Kingdom come out of the pandemic at different rates, but
different regions of England may also come out of the pandemic at
different rates. It is right that this Government are committed
to supporting everyone, no matter where they live, to have the
best chances to come out of coronavirus and its effects. We will
continue to do that as a Government, in dialogue and constructive
discussion with the devolved Administrations.
[V]
Is the Minister aware of a survey by the charity
Radiotherapy4Life, which says that there may be between 2,500 and
7,000 avoidable cancer deaths in Scotland as a result of deferred
treatments for cancer patients as a consequence of the NHS
focusing on the covid-19 response? Will he work with his
counterparts in the four nations to put the case to prioritise
advanced radiotherapy by seeking to increase funding, and to
remove bureaucratic barriers and restrictions to modernising
radiotherapy and encouraging the use of advanced radiotherapy?
The hon. Gentleman raises an extremely important point. We have
to make it clear in Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland
that our NHS remains open. That message has been loud and clear.
Cancer patients should be aware that we will do everything we can
across the four nations of the United Kingdom to get the
treatment they need and deserve, but the ultimate message is,
yes, coronavirus has an impact on our NHS. Because of the actions
of the Government and the public, we have been able to suppress
the covid outbreak to ensure that we have not breached capacity,
but we cannot allow important medical matters to go untreated for
too much longer. That message is heard loud and clear throughout
the Government.
[V]
When the Prime Minister ditched “Stay at Home” for “Stay Alert”,
he did not appear to have been too alert to the fact that the
other three nations were not with him. Is it not time to
re-establish the four-nation approach as soon as possible?
I think we have seen a slight divergence in some areas, but
together the four nations continue to work strongly in lockstep
to ensure that we can beat coronavirus and save not only lives,
but livelihoods. I am encouraged that Scotland will shortly
announce similar measures to the rest of the United Kingdom to
release some of the restrictions that are in place, but it is
important that these decisions are taken in the devolved
Administrations where public health is devolved to the respective
Governments.
PPE Procurement
(Sefton Central) (Lab)
What steps he is taking to ensure that the procurement of
personal protective equipment in response to the covid-19
outbreak operates effectively between the UK and Scottish
Governments. [902838]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland
()
The UK Government are working tirelessly to procure PPE both
internationally and domestically for UK-wide distribution. This
is in addition to the Scottish Government’s own procurement
processes. We are working with the devolved Administrations to
ensure that the different parts of the UK do not compete against
one another in the international market, and that the Foreign and
Commonwealth Office can make a single approach to foreign
Governments.
[V]
The lack of PPE is a scandal. It is part of the reason for the
high mortality rate in care homes across the UK. What discussions
has the Minister had with the Scottish Government to ensure that
nations are not competing against one another for the vital PPE
that our essential frontline workers need?
As I said in my opening remarks, the UK Government are committed
to ensuring that we work as a United Kingdom, and the Foreign and
Commonwealth Office has taken a lead on this issue to ensure that
that can happen. I have had regular discussions with Donald
Macaskill of Scottish Care about PPE, but also about the
outstanding work that our care workers are doing in care homes
and around the community across Scotland and the whole of the
United Kingdom; they deserve our praise for what they are doing.
PPE: Distribution to Scotland
(Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath)
(Ind)
What steps he is taking to ensure the equitable distribution of
imported personal protective equipment to Scotland. [902839]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland
()
We are working closely with the devolved nations to ensure that
supplies of PPE, both domestic and imported, are distributed
equally across the four nations. As I mentioned in my previous
response, we are also working to ensure that different parts of
the UK do not compete against one other when procuring PPE
internationally.
[V]
Despite the England-only designation of some PPE imports, the
grassroots medical association EveryDoctor has been collating a
range of data on PPE availability, and anecdotal evidence
suggests that the Scottish Government’s system of procurement and
distribution of PPE for Scotland’s NHS has been more efficient
and effective from its perspective than that experienced by
frontline medical staff in the English NHS. Can the Minister
advise the House of what discussions he has had—
Mr Speaker
Order. I think we’ve got the question. I call the Minister.
I have had regular discussions with the Scottish Government about
procuring PPE. Of course, it was the Scottish Government who had
a delivery into Prestwick airport of PPE that was not properly
labelled, which sat in the airport unable to get out into the
care homes to protect the people we needed it to get to. The four
nations across the United Kingdom continue to prioritise this
issue. It is important for our NHS workers, our careworkers and
Scotland and the United Kingdom as a whole.
