Minister admits police force is “stretched at the moment”

He also defended the reduction in the use of stop and search by the police saying “there's no evidence to link a fall in stop and search with the increase in violent crime we're all deeply worried about.”

TRANSCRIPT BELOW

John Pienaar: It's the government line that cutting police numbers has done nothing to contribute to the risk of crime, that is your argument...

Nick Hurd: Just to be clear, there's a political accusation that somehow reduction in police numbers has been a driver of this horrendous spike in violence. That is categorically not the case. And those making that argument have got to answer this, if that's the case then why did we see a similar spike in knife crime back in 2008/9, when 89 people lost their lives, similar in proportion, at a time when we had many thousand more police officers and much more public money being spent so that's what we're pushing back on

JP: I'm not sure that quite carries the argument though, it is a fact that we now have 20 thousand or so fewer officers in service than we did in 2010. To say that that has had no effect completely negates the point that surely the more officers on the beat detecting crime and deterring crime, the better. Every officer in service does a useful job, to say that taking 20,000 out of service has no effect that's surely makes no sense at all.

NH: No well we're simply echoing the points made by the Met Police Commissioner that we shouldn't make a direct link between reduced officer numbers and this increase in violent crime because it's much more complicated that as we may discuss

JP: But surely the more officers that we can afford to put into service, the more useful function can be served by the police. That's just simple logic, each officer does a useful job whether it's in the back office, whether it's out on the street, whether it's detecting crime, whether it's simply relating to members of the public who want that kind of reassurance. You can't say these officers are not useful and serve a positive role?

NH: I'm not saying that at all, in fact I go further, of course as I said at the top a tougher approach to law enforcement is fundamental to the new strategy we're announcing tomorrow and of course the police have got an enormously important role to play.

JP: So those cuts have had an effect haven't they?

NH: People making that case have to explain why when we saw a similar spike in violent crime back in 2008/9, similar in its proportion, we had thousands more police officers.

JP: They don't have to make that point do they because you may have had a particular problem with crime and violent crime at that time, you may have had a higher level of policing but you can't say the higher level of policing was doing nothing to constrain the level of crime, the numbers may have been much higher had we not had a higher level of policing at that point?

NH: I'm not saying that in fact I'm saying categorically that tough law enforcement is central to the solution. Proactive, targeted, visible, police presence, you're entirely right. Now are they stretched at the moment, yes they are. When I took on this job last June , I visited or spoke to every single police force in England and Wales as part of the demand review and that work led to a new funding settlement which will mean that £460million of taxpayers money more is going into our police system this year. This year it means that this year we'll be spending over £13bn.

JP: So the police Nick are being stretched, so you're happy to accept now that the police have been stretched due to, although you say you're addressing the problem now, due to the way numbers have been treated. You've also got community support officers who are also very very important and we've seen numbers there tumble from nearly 17,000 in 2010 to just over 10,000 now, that will have a similar effect won't it?

NH: We are investing more in our police system because our police system is stretched. It's not just about, of course, the increase in violent crime, we're seeing a pattern change in terms of demand on police and we've listened and responded to that and that's why i've said this year as a country we're investing £1bn more in our police system than we were back in 2015/16. There's no dispute about the pressure on the front line of policing and we've responded to that with additional investment. What i'm pushing back on is making a direct link between fall in officer numbers and this increase in violence because it's actually much more complicated than that.

JP: One would have to accept it's more complicated than a simple correlation. We now seem to agree that you weaken police power when you weaken police numbers, so we can accept that and move on?

NH: We can't kid ourselves that we can police our way, arrest our way out of this problem. All the evidence from London 10 years ago, Strathclyde, Boston Cincinnati, is you need a combination of tougher law enforcement so that people know that if they use these weapons - knives, guns, acid - they'll get caught and there are serious consequences for them. But you've got to balance that with a big programme of coordinated early intervention and prevention to send another message which has got to be believed which is if you want to step off that path, if you want to move away from this violent life we will support you and it's going to be a very major focus of the serious violence strategy.

JP: Every one of us is allowed to make mistakes and most of us do it all the time, so when the Prime Minister, the then Home Secretary. Theresa May urged great restraint in the use of stop and search powers, we've now seen those searches coming down from 1.5m in 2009 to just 300,000 last year, when that edict went out was it a mistake?

NH: No, I don’t think it was a mistake. There were real problems about how stop and search was being used at its peak, I think well over a million people were being stopped and searched and a tiny percentage of that, under 10 per cent resulted in arrest, it was being used in a disproportionate way and was causing real friction and difficulty in exactly the kind of communities where the police need to be building trust and there's no evidence to link a fall in stop and search with the increase in violent crime we're all deeply worried about.

JP: But you want to see more stops and searches now?

NH: It's a vital tool in the police kit, we support it being used properly in a targeted, intelligent way